2 Aircraft down near Abingdon
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Pedro, Flarm only helps where both aircraft have it fitted. I do intend fitting it to my glider, but as nearly everything in the UK with it fitted is a glider it won't help me avoid GA, just (some) other gliders. The cost in the UK is also just over £500, not £350.
Last edited by cats_five; 15th Jun 2009 at 11:34.
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I spent a couple of years as a Civilian Instructor with an ATC Sqn. and took my cadets to Benson for Air Experience Flights on many occasions. At this sad time, I'd like to pay tribute to the people who operate the AEF flight. I know the care and diligence with which the operation is run. I'm sure those personnel associated with the AEF flight at Benson will be utterly devastated by this loss.
I've seen many very nervous cadets pass through their hands and head out to the aircraft, only to return 30 minutes later grinning from ear to ear and being hooked on flying from that point.
The AEF Pilots are generally retired RAF personnel with many thousands of hours experience. I myself was flown in a Tutor by an Air Vice Marshall. As a PPL holder myself, I could apprecate the skill and experience of these guys.
As tragic as this is, let's hope that the powers that be allow the AEF scheme to continue. Thousands of Cadets have had their first experience of flying through the AEF, and I'm sure that for many, this was a defining moment in their future career choices.
I've seen many very nervous cadets pass through their hands and head out to the aircraft, only to return 30 minutes later grinning from ear to ear and being hooked on flying from that point.
The AEF Pilots are generally retired RAF personnel with many thousands of hours experience. I myself was flown in a Tutor by an Air Vice Marshall. As a PPL holder myself, I could apprecate the skill and experience of these guys.
As tragic as this is, let's hope that the powers that be allow the AEF scheme to continue. Thousands of Cadets have had their first experience of flying through the AEF, and I'm sure that for many, this was a defining moment in their future career choices.
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600CHF - as usual, we get charged a premium 
There is no legal reason Flarm cannot be used in GA a/c, it would not require any approval, and can be powered from a rechargeable battery pack
Even at £500 a pop, it's far cheaper than mode S which offers almost no benefit to weekend fliers.
Obviously it's a critical mass thing, as more UK a/c get Flarm, the benefit to all increases, because of the low weight, there is no barrier to using the device in very light aircraft and even powered chutes.
The latest versions can even include a database of ground hazards which hopefully would stop some of the "controlled flight into rising ground" accidents.
Had both the aircraft involved in yesterday's accident been Flarm equipped, two priceless lives would probably have been saved.
There is no legal reason Flarm cannot be used in GA a/c, it would not require any approval, and can be powered from a rechargeable battery pack
Even at £500 a pop, it's far cheaper than mode S which offers almost no benefit to weekend fliers.
Obviously it's a critical mass thing, as more UK a/c get Flarm, the benefit to all increases, because of the low weight, there is no barrier to using the device in very light aircraft and even powered chutes.
The latest versions can even include a database of ground hazards which hopefully would stop some of the "controlled flight into rising ground" accidents.
Had both the aircraft involved in yesterday's accident been Flarm equipped, two priceless lives would probably have been saved.
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This is a dreadful event which any pilot would want to avoid.
However, the solution for GA is not as simple as putting a gadget on the panel
to do the looking for us.
The FLARM is a good device for glider pilots in the environment they fly. But only any good if all the other aircraft likely to be met in the air are likewise equippped.
I have installed a FLARM system to a GA aircraft engaged in glider towing. When fitted to a powered aircraft it needs to be heard over the noise of the engine and radio. It will therefore need to be properly powered and connected to the aircraft's audio system. This will involve a modification to the aircraft which will need CAA approval (for a fee) and installation (for a fee).
To connect the FLARM to the audio you will also need a FLOICE unit, which is a voice-intercom interface.
Remember that a glider pilot usually has a bubble canopy with excellent vision capabilities so in the event that a FLARM warning is given (visible and audible) the pilot can quickly look for the conflict and take avoiding action. I believe the range of the FLARM is such that a warning is given 15-20 seconds before possible conflict.
Most GA aircraft do not have such good all-round vision and as such, a FLARM alert may not give the pilot time to digest the audible and visible information, look out to verify, given the many blind spots inherent in GA aircraft and take the correct avoiding action.
As is so often the case in these events, it is better to wait for the AAIB report before deciding a course of action based on where the perceived problem was in this case.
However, the solution for GA is not as simple as putting a gadget on the panel
to do the looking for us.
The FLARM is a good device for glider pilots in the environment they fly. But only any good if all the other aircraft likely to be met in the air are likewise equippped.
I have installed a FLARM system to a GA aircraft engaged in glider towing. When fitted to a powered aircraft it needs to be heard over the noise of the engine and radio. It will therefore need to be properly powered and connected to the aircraft's audio system. This will involve a modification to the aircraft which will need CAA approval (for a fee) and installation (for a fee).
To connect the FLARM to the audio you will also need a FLOICE unit, which is a voice-intercom interface.
Remember that a glider pilot usually has a bubble canopy with excellent vision capabilities so in the event that a FLARM warning is given (visible and audible) the pilot can quickly look for the conflict and take avoiding action. I believe the range of the FLARM is such that a warning is given 15-20 seconds before possible conflict.
Most GA aircraft do not have such good all-round vision and as such, a FLARM alert may not give the pilot time to digest the audible and visible information, look out to verify, given the many blind spots inherent in GA aircraft and take the correct avoiding action.
As is so often the case in these events, it is better to wait for the AAIB report before deciding a course of action based on where the perceived problem was in this case.
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I took the decision to fit FLARM to my glider (total cost just over £650) for the 'Red Box' variant after having a conflict alert in a FLARM equipped club glider in Nth Yorkshire a year or so ago.
It does not and should not replace a good look-out discipline but I have already had one conflict alert with another FLARM equipped glider when we were approaching virtually head on at similar altitude. Would I have seen it? I'd like to think so but with FLARM it immediately drew my eyes to the bit of sky where the contact appeared and avoiding action was taken with no drama.
Money well spent? I think so and you get an extra IGC approved logger too!
It does not and should not replace a good look-out discipline but I have already had one conflict alert with another FLARM equipped glider when we were approaching virtually head on at similar altitude. Would I have seen it? I'd like to think so but with FLARM it immediately drew my eyes to the bit of sky where the contact appeared and avoiding action was taken with no drama.
Money well spent? I think so and you get an extra IGC approved logger too!
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What you say about buzzers is true, however the cost of having a Flarm wired in is still a lot less than a mode-S set which would have been no use whatsoever. In any case there is no need for it to be wired in, all it needs is an in-line plug & jack connected to a noise out jack on the Flarm box.
Regarding poor all round visibility - that surely reinforces the point, if your bimbling around in a 152 and you get a glider coming down from above your wing, at least it gives you the chance to dive away from unseen danger.
If the CAA must mandate me to fit some form of device, I would much sooner fit something that has a chance of being of benefit.
Nothing beats the Mark 1 eyeball - well, apart from technology - it's available, lets encourage it's use.
Pete
Regarding poor all round visibility - that surely reinforces the point, if your bimbling around in a 152 and you get a glider coming down from above your wing, at least it gives you the chance to dive away from unseen danger.
If the CAA must mandate me to fit some form of device, I would much sooner fit something that has a chance of being of benefit.
Nothing beats the Mark 1 eyeball - well, apart from technology - it's available, lets encourage it's use.
Pete
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To Pete,
If the job is to be done properly, you fit the device FLARM supply for the purpose. The alarm must "interupt" all other communication. You surely would not bodge the job?
Given the FLARM's rudimentary visual indication of possible conflict, how would you know the "glider", in your example, is above your wing and "coming down", particularly as you cannot see it and give you enough time to evaluate the threat and react correctly.
The FLARM, for GA, is an aid but a very limited one and I would estimate the proper system for a powered aeroplane would cost close to £1000, including approval and installation.
"Remember; Flarm is not a substitute for good lookout but an aid to better lookout." (UK dealer statement - for gliders)
I am not an advocate for Mode-S and there is no point in promoting FLARM on the basis it is cheaper than Mode-S. But I do prefer pilots that I share the sky with to be looking out rather than at a gadget on the panel which, if it is dormant, implies there is nothing to look for. Which is a danger I think.
If the job is to be done properly, you fit the device FLARM supply for the purpose. The alarm must "interupt" all other communication. You surely would not bodge the job?
Given the FLARM's rudimentary visual indication of possible conflict, how would you know the "glider", in your example, is above your wing and "coming down", particularly as you cannot see it and give you enough time to evaluate the threat and react correctly.
The FLARM, for GA, is an aid but a very limited one and I would estimate the proper system for a powered aeroplane would cost close to £1000, including approval and installation.
"Remember; Flarm is not a substitute for good lookout but an aid to better lookout." (UK dealer statement - for gliders)
I am not an advocate for Mode-S and there is no point in promoting FLARM on the basis it is cheaper than Mode-S. But I do prefer pilots that I share the sky with to be looking out rather than at a gadget on the panel which, if it is dormant, implies there is nothing to look for. Which is a danger I think.
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<snip>
Given the FLARM's rudimentary visual indication of possible conflict, how would you know the "glider", in your example, is above your wing and "coming down", particularly as you cannot see it and give you enough time to evaluate the threat and react correctly.
<snip>
Given the FLARM's rudimentary visual indication of possible conflict, how would you know the "glider", in your example, is above your wing and "coming down", particularly as you cannot see it and give you enough time to evaluate the threat and react correctly.
<snip>
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If the Glider had had £390 worth of PCAS he would have “seen” the Tutor (assuming it had a transponder. If the BGA encouraged the fitting of Flarm and PCAS and the rest of us fitted Flarm and PCAS we would all be £1000 less well off but much less likely to fly into each other. I am hoping to test a Flarm in my MCR very soon (will report back) and already have PCAS. Collision avoidance which combines detection of Flarm and Transponders is less than 12 months away.
Rod1
Rod1
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“All AEF/UAS Tutors squawk at all times outside the circuit, so PCAS would indeed have helped.”
That is good, but it would be even better if they used them in the circuit as well.
Rod1
That is good, but it would be even better if they used them in the circuit as well.
Rod1
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Names have been posted on the military aircrew forum and there is a thread to leave respects.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post4999348
Rgds
Chinchilla.
http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post4999348
Rgds
Chinchilla.
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Has the AAIB report been published for the February AEF crash?
( BBC NEWS | UK | Wales | Four die in mid-air plane crash )
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...collision.html
( BBC NEWS | UK | Wales | Four die in mid-air plane crash )
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...collision.html
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Part of the safety problem is "over regulation". Why do we need approval to hard wire in a FLARM device? What approvals are required to wire something like this into the a/c power supply and GPS
I have a PCAS hard wired into my panel mounted G496. It shows the traffic on the GPS screen with amazing accuracy. I would buy a FLARM box too, but don't want a standalone unit, what I want is just the processor and Tx/Rx parts....I want to use my GPS to send the GPS position to FLARM then take the output from FLARM and display traffic on my GPS, together with the PCAS traffic.
I have my GPS wired into the intercom so it speaks (Terrain / Traffic etc..) so that gets over the alert problem too.
That way I can have the guts of the FLARM hidden behind my panel and a hull mounted FLARM antenna, and ideally shouldn't cost more than £300. Ideally I'd like the PCAS hidden out of the way too but until they come up with a hull mountable directional antenna I'll have to get used to having it suction mounted to the windscreen when I fly.
Is there an option for buying FLARM without the GPS unit, seeing as many aeroplanes have GPS anyway?
I have a PCAS hard wired into my panel mounted G496. It shows the traffic on the GPS screen with amazing accuracy. I would buy a FLARM box too, but don't want a standalone unit, what I want is just the processor and Tx/Rx parts....I want to use my GPS to send the GPS position to FLARM then take the output from FLARM and display traffic on my GPS, together with the PCAS traffic.
I have my GPS wired into the intercom so it speaks (Terrain / Traffic etc..) so that gets over the alert problem too.
That way I can have the guts of the FLARM hidden behind my panel and a hull mounted FLARM antenna, and ideally shouldn't cost more than £300. Ideally I'd like the PCAS hidden out of the way too but until they come up with a hull mountable directional antenna I'll have to get used to having it suction mounted to the windscreen when I fly.
Is there an option for buying FLARM without the GPS unit, seeing as many aeroplanes have GPS anyway?
