ATC with a problem!
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ATC with a problem!
We often fly into London Southend Airport (Stobart International) as that is where our club is based (although we fly from a different airfield/farm strip) and I was made aware today of some very strange goings on!
Most people are aware that Southend are about the most anal of ATCs and have a pretty bad reputation around here (apart from one controller who is a really decent bloke) by intimidating students, which they should be very wary of after what happened there a few years ago, and generally being unhelpful.
I was once accused by them of flying across their fan lines (outside the ATZ) when a jet was landing and the manager said he was going to report me to the CAA. I went to see him as I was not even flying in the area and had proof that I was not, and he said he had reported me as the eye witness had reported that it was a small white tricycle plane that he followed on radar back to my airfield and phoned them to report me (I got the call from our radio operator that I was in trouble when I was 15 miles away in the other direction!) I asked how he come to my Reg. And he said he looked at the records of planes landing there from our airfield and I had landed there a few days before! (There are 7 small white tricycle planes based at our field by the way!)
We had another guy going into an farm strip right on the edge of their ATZ and he was on a FIS with them and when he got near the farm strip he asked for weather, the Controller was quite abrupt and said no as he was not landing there!! The pilot asked him to give him the weather again as he was landing at an airfield 2.5 miles away and it would be nice to have at least an idea of wind direction and the pilot was made to feel very small on the radio! Not a good service.
There has been many more but this post is long enough!
Anyway, I found out today that the manager of the ATC has one radio tuned into our farm strip frequency so he can keep an eye on us!! (We are 40 miles away) Surely this is an abuse of his duties! He is very petty and likes reporting people, one guy had his PTT switch stuck down for a few mins on their freq. (which does happen sometimes) and I was told today that that he has been reported to the CAA (for what??)
I suppose it did not help that when the guy realised that it had stuck down he apologised to everyone about it then switched to our farm strip freq. and said to one of the others that it was a good job that the manager was not on as he is a TW*T!! (not realising that the manager tunes into our freq.!)
Has anyone else had this kind of surveillance from them and is it the “done” thing to spend your time listening in on other airfields frequencies just so they can catch them at something when they should be serving the aviators?
Rant over!
Hovering AND talking
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Has anyone else had this kind of surveillance from them
It might be more constructive if your club and the ATCU in question sat down together and had a chat.
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Whirls
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An ATC Mandatory Occurence Report (MOR) is submitted to the CAA when something dangerous happens, not necessarily something that is illegal. Crossing an instrument approach in Class G without speaking to the ATC unit concerned is legal, but it is also poor airmanship and potentially unsafe (in my opinion, of course).
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The ATCO is out of order. To "pursue" an individual via an MOR is not what the CAA are interested in; it's not what the system is there for. Let him report it but don't worry about it, as already stated above.
I had someone do this to myself. I was named in an MOR as the pilot causing damage to an airfield installation with rotor downwash, failing to comply with airfield procedures and causing an airprox. The CAA reply was as above.
I wasn't on duty at the time of the alleged incident, btw, but I was given a copy of the paperwork and the follow up report.
I had someone do this to myself. I was named in an MOR as the pilot causing damage to an airfield installation with rotor downwash, failing to comply with airfield procedures and causing an airprox. The CAA reply was as above.
I wasn't on duty at the time of the alleged incident, btw, but I was given a copy of the paperwork and the follow up report.
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H'mm I suppose you could say it was illegal due to the telephony act. But I wouldn't think it would get very far.
I wouldn't worry about the MOR game. I wouldn't get childish and start firing them back in. Best people to have a chat with would be the SRG air traffic inspectors. Or try phoning a CAA staff examiner, they have absolutely no authority at all with all things air traffic but they know the rule book inside out. They have lots of mates they can have a chat with. And having heard a very one way discussion between a single digit Exam callsign and a SATCO about the level of service of his unit it was clinical and very scary.
If you have the date and time when the person was refused wx because they weren't landing at the airport I would use that as your opening card. The inspectors will not be happy with that at all, and will be more receptive to your other complaints after being given a good hard event which they can run with.
I wouldn't worry about the MOR game. I wouldn't get childish and start firing them back in. Best people to have a chat with would be the SRG air traffic inspectors. Or try phoning a CAA staff examiner, they have absolutely no authority at all with all things air traffic but they know the rule book inside out. They have lots of mates they can have a chat with. And having heard a very one way discussion between a single digit Exam callsign and a SATCO about the level of service of his unit it was clinical and very scary.
If you have the date and time when the person was refused wx because they weren't landing at the airport I would use that as your opening card. The inspectors will not be happy with that at all, and will be more receptive to your other complaints after being given a good hard event which they can run with.
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Had my own experiences of Southend. ATC always seemed OK to me, except when I was charged for a missed approach fee for a go around due to safety.
BTW - if you need weather, you could dial up Southend ATIS on 136.050. Saves on the danger of getting shouted at, although admittedly you shouldn't really have to.....
BTW - if you need weather, you could dial up Southend ATIS on 136.050. Saves on the danger of getting shouted at, although admittedly you shouldn't really have to.....
Both Southend and Manston get a bit shirty if Farnborough works traffic which they consider is in their LARS area; it's all class G airspace though so when they say they're going to MOR, I used to think 'go ahead'.
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Thanks everyone,
I have had a few PMs from people stating there experiences (which i will not repeat as they are their vews and very daming!)
it appears i am not the only one who has problems with them!
I have had a few PMs from people stating there experiences (which i will not repeat as they are their vews and very daming!)
it appears i am not the only one who has problems with them!
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Sarfend....
Have to say never had any problems with them.....go there for the ILS quite frequently and they're more than happy to allow the student to get his mucking furds in a wuddle without shouting at them.
Wx available everytime I ask for it - though that isn't often as I do ATIS it.
DD
Wx available everytime I ask for it - though that isn't often as I do ATIS it.
DD
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I have to say I dont recognise the ATC you describe as Southend. I have found them to be always helpful when doing instrument practice. In fact I would go as far and say they are one of the friendliest ATC unit I have worked with.
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I only used Southend once, it was a little while ago but they were great. They gave me a SRA (I had no ILS instrumentation) on a diversion from Blackpool to Rochester (where there was fog). They would not accept my offer to pay any landing fees.
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Southend ATC
I have an aircraft based at Southend and I have to say that the ATC team is first class. Kept in place by the manager they are friendly, and helpful and the best I have encountered.
I know that they are stretched with their staff numbers working long hours and minimum staffing,and are training several new controllers, all of which are progressing superbly in my opinion, so all staff should be commended with their commitment and patience.I know personally one of the team who also flys both with the GA and microlight communtity and he actively visits clubs and societies to try and put a ATC point to the flyers in his own time.This commitment is not unique amongst the team and I am disappointed in reading the negative comments about the staff at Southend. They are a friendly, dedicated and professional team and do a wonderful job in looking after us residents. I applaud the team and keep up the good work.
ps,why fly so close to a busy airfield without calling anyway?.You could find you are in close proximity to a 757!, and next weekend a Hawk or Typhoon! If you call Southend they will be able to advise you and provide the usual high quality service they always do. Keep it up chaps(and chapesses)
I know that they are stretched with their staff numbers working long hours and minimum staffing,and are training several new controllers, all of which are progressing superbly in my opinion, so all staff should be commended with their commitment and patience.I know personally one of the team who also flys both with the GA and microlight communtity and he actively visits clubs and societies to try and put a ATC point to the flyers in his own time.This commitment is not unique amongst the team and I am disappointed in reading the negative comments about the staff at Southend. They are a friendly, dedicated and professional team and do a wonderful job in looking after us residents. I applaud the team and keep up the good work.
ps,why fly so close to a busy airfield without calling anyway?.You could find you are in close proximity to a 757!, and next weekend a Hawk or Typhoon! If you call Southend they will be able to advise you and provide the usual high quality service they always do. Keep it up chaps(and chapesses)
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OK, as an ex-Southend ATCer, albeit many years ago, I'll take the bait.
Southend only has primary radar and very limited vertical airspace, in which to contain it's IFR traffic and training traffic. This means that providing a LARS in a busy environment with a constant stream of City and Heathrow inbounds passing overhead or abeam can be very challenging. (Chevvron...I'm surprised EGLF are hanging onto traffic that far out without co-ordination?)
Flying through the final approach track of a published instrument approach at an Airport known to operate large jets is, of course, perfectly legal. Personally, I don't think it's the best demonstration of airmanship, maybe the ATS Manager was hoping to point this out?
There are many new faces (and voices) at Southend since I was there, but I do still know a good number of the team. They're a good bunch of people and extremely competent ATCO's, who do a difficult job with limited resources. That's why the CAA 'approve' them as an ANSP.
I flew in there about 3 weeks ago, got a Traffic Service in and out and a radar handover to Farnborough on the way out, despite a runway change and a busy VFR and IFR traffic mix. Top service.
Why not give them a call or another visit, rather than resorting to voiceing your gripes and making accusations on a public forum? Take cakes, you'll need to. It seems, from your comments that there's an 'us vs them' mentality between your farm strip and Southend ATC. This does nothing to improve flight safety for any airspace users and needs addressing.
Southend only has primary radar and very limited vertical airspace, in which to contain it's IFR traffic and training traffic. This means that providing a LARS in a busy environment with a constant stream of City and Heathrow inbounds passing overhead or abeam can be very challenging. (Chevvron...I'm surprised EGLF are hanging onto traffic that far out without co-ordination?)
Flying through the final approach track of a published instrument approach at an Airport known to operate large jets is, of course, perfectly legal. Personally, I don't think it's the best demonstration of airmanship, maybe the ATS Manager was hoping to point this out?
There are many new faces (and voices) at Southend since I was there, but I do still know a good number of the team. They're a good bunch of people and extremely competent ATCO's, who do a difficult job with limited resources. That's why the CAA 'approve' them as an ANSP.
I flew in there about 3 weeks ago, got a Traffic Service in and out and a radar handover to Farnborough on the way out, despite a runway change and a busy VFR and IFR traffic mix. Top service.
Why not give them a call or another visit, rather than resorting to voiceing your gripes and making accusations on a public forum? Take cakes, you'll need to. It seems, from your comments that there's an 'us vs them' mentality between your farm strip and Southend ATC. This does nothing to improve flight safety for any airspace users and needs addressing.
Hovering AND talking
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Well Jumbo Driver, if you didn't appreciate Goatface's comment, why don't you explain the point of your original post? Because I missed it as well.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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Fujiflyer, Whirls, I didn't mean my post to be unfair.
The thread topic is about the quality of ATC at Southend. I have no direct experience and therefore will not join in with any criticism but the report of the tragic accident in 2006 was to some degree critical of the service provided by Southend ATC and resulted in several safety recommendations for procedural changes. That is why I posted the link.
My objection to goatface's comments were simply because of the manner of his response. I believe discussion on these fora should try to be on-topic and not be gratuitously offensive or personal.
I still think my post was pertinent but I am sorry if I ruffled feathers.
JD
The thread topic is about the quality of ATC at Southend. I have no direct experience and therefore will not join in with any criticism but the report of the tragic accident in 2006 was to some degree critical of the service provided by Southend ATC and resulted in several safety recommendations for procedural changes. That is why I posted the link.
My objection to goatface's comments were simply because of the manner of his response. I believe discussion on these fora should try to be on-topic and not be gratuitously offensive or personal.
I still think my post was pertinent but I am sorry if I ruffled feathers.
JD
but the report of the tragic accident in 2006 was to some degree critical of the service provided by Southend ATC and resulted in several safety recommendations for procedural changes