popham madness
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popham madness
I flew into Popham yesterday, i arrived at about the same time as 40 other "microlights and light aircraft". let the chaos begin, my hat off to the A/G operator, I'm amazed he didn't have a nervous breakdown.
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I flew in yesterday in an RV6 and a friend behind me in an RV8, very interesting. I just managed to create enough room between me and the 5 flex's on final in front of me when a Jabiru dropped from the overhead straight onto final in front of me. They had a very good system of diverting faster aircraft on final for 21 to 26, which worked well for us.
Agree with what you said about the controller, the workload doesn't come much higher than that. Well done to him.
Agree with what you said about the controller, the workload doesn't come much higher than that. Well done to him.
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I don't think that Popham has a "controller", the guy is an A\G operator and pilots would do well to remember this.
but before some of you think that this is a "pop" at the staff at Popham IT IS NOT, it is just fact.
but before some of you think that this is a "pop" at the staff at Popham IT IS NOT, it is just fact.
I am 99% sure that the a/g operator at Popham yesterday is a qualified ATC and yes it was a busy day! Today was much quieter - no idea how busy tomorrow will be for the aerojumble
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Headcorn was also inundated with foreign microlights (& a couple of gyrocopters too!) yesterday, and the same chaos ensued.....Not half as bad as when the bloke in the Yak52 got airborne though!
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Hi
"He may well be - but I presume he still only provided an A/G service."
No he is not (only for A/G ) and Yes it is only A/G and there where over 1,100 movments on saturday
"He may well be - but I presume he still only provided an A/G service."
No he is not (only for A/G ) and Yes it is only A/G and there where over 1,100 movments on saturday
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I went on Saturday and landed at a busy time. They were coming in from all directions, including the two flex-wings in front of me who just flew their six-mile straight-in approach oblivious to the circuit traffic.
When I was landing, there was so much radio chat that the A/G man simply resorted to "About ten at once, all totally unreadable. For anyone landing at Popham we are on 26 right with a QFE of 1010". I just pretended to be non-radio.
All great fun. If you go to a big microlight fly-in on a sunny day, you should know what to expect. If you can't deal with it or don't like it, don't go!
When I was landing, there was so much radio chat that the A/G man simply resorted to "About ten at once, all totally unreadable. For anyone landing at Popham we are on 26 right with a QFE of 1010". I just pretended to be non-radio.
All great fun. If you go to a big microlight fly-in on a sunny day, you should know what to expect. If you can't deal with it or don't like it, don't go!
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Hats off to all the staff etc at Popham, a busy but thoroughly enjoyable weekend, with plenty to see and do and only a small landing to boot. Brought back memories of the PFA rallies, breaking left or right for the grass or tarmac depnding on what you were behind on approach
!!
!!
Impressive movement rates I'm sure - until someone dies. This is just carnage and [I]instructions[/I] from A/G radio oporator such as "cleared for take-off at your discression - roll now" when the runway is still occupied do not add to any feeling of legality or order. As the frequency is unrecorded then nobody will get the blame when it does go wrong, but this is not an exemplary aviation event from a safety point of view. I doubt that there was much compliance with ANO Rule 14
Perhap if they wanted SAFE, ORDERLY and expeditious they should get some ATC involvement.
It is one of the last remining fun events in the vein of PFA rallies of old, but really should consider a bit more safety.
Landing and take-off
14. (2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.
14. (2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.
It is one of the last remining fun events in the vein of PFA rallies of old, but really should consider a bit more safety.
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<<Landing and take-off
14. (2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.>>
Landing only!
There's no restriction in Rule 14 about taking-off if there are other aircraft on the runway!
But, I agree, 'cleared for take-off at your discretion..... roll now' is a can of worms!!
I expect ATSD will be looking at Special Event ATC for this special event in future....
14. (2) Subject to paragraph (5), a flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if there are other aircraft on the runway.>>
Landing only!
There's no restriction in Rule 14 about taking-off if there are other aircraft on the runway!
But, I agree, 'cleared for take-off at your discretion..... roll now' is a can of worms!!
I expect ATSD will be looking at Special Event ATC for this special event in future....
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Visited Popham safely from the ground over the weekend. Yes, the atmosphere was good, yes it was wonderful to see people enjoying themselves but is it a safe flying environment - absolutely not. I read the instructions issued on their website and came away with the feeling Popham (which is only an Air / Ground radio) has delusions of grandeur. Popham is A/G which is not ATC (although they call themselves ATC) and cannot clear anyone to take off or land.
Excerpt from instructions below:
The mass departure usually commences about 15:00 each day. ATC will give you the runway and QNH and you will be advised to “Depart with the Marshaller”. This person is a qualified controller and pilot and will be in full radio communication both with you and the Tower. You will be waved off with Red Bats when it is clear for you to go. Do not ignore the Marshaller as he knows what he is doing and has a better view of the sky/traffic than you do!
Excerpt from instructions below:
The mass departure usually commences about 15:00 each day. ATC will give you the runway and QNH and you will be advised to “Depart with the Marshaller”. This person is a qualified controller and pilot and will be in full radio communication both with you and the Tower. You will be waved off with Red Bats when it is clear for you to go. Do not ignore the Marshaller as he knows what he is doing and has a better view of the sky/traffic than you do!
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<<advised to “Depart with the Marshaller>>
This is advice. In which case it is not an instruction.
<<You will be waved off with Red Bats when it is clear for you to go.>>
'Clear'? So was this Special Event ATC, official or otherwise?
<<This person is a qualified controller and pilot>>
This is irrelevant if a temporary ATC Service and associated procedures are not promulgated.
<<This person is a qualified.......pilot>>
And neither is this a requirement even if a temporary ATC Service is promulgated.
This is advice. In which case it is not an instruction.
<<You will be waved off with Red Bats when it is clear for you to go.>>
'Clear'? So was this Special Event ATC, official or otherwise?
<<This person is a qualified controller and pilot>>
This is irrelevant if a temporary ATC Service and associated procedures are not promulgated.
<<This person is a qualified.......pilot>>
And neither is this a requirement even if a temporary ATC Service is promulgated.
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I don't know what the fuss is about. I went to Popham at the weekend. it was wonderfully maniacally busy and between the marsheller's and the efficient radio service I had no problems with flying in, parking and flying back out. I managed to work out all by my lonesome what the marsheller's were indicating and as PIC used my own discretion to safely operate my aircraft without causing delay or inconvenience to anyone else.
It was wonderful to see so many aviation enthusiasts and the general public mingling. it also proves that the British can really make a hobby out of anything. The range of interests represented from motorbike restoration to aircraft parts was fantastic. I managed to pick up loads of 'treasure' for working on the Auster, several spare parts and a multitude of books.
As far as I am aware there were no incidents, everyone just got on with it and it proves in this day of high viz and stupid HSE rules that people can actually make safe decisions for themselves.
I would suggest that those who are uncomfortable with having to make their own decisions without the aid of ATC then they drive in. Personally I think it works just fine.
A big thanks to Popham for a fantastic event and long may it continue.
It was wonderful to see so many aviation enthusiasts and the general public mingling. it also proves that the British can really make a hobby out of anything. The range of interests represented from motorbike restoration to aircraft parts was fantastic. I managed to pick up loads of 'treasure' for working on the Auster, several spare parts and a multitude of books.
As far as I am aware there were no incidents, everyone just got on with it and it proves in this day of high viz and stupid HSE rules that people can actually make safe decisions for themselves.
I would suggest that those who are uncomfortable with having to make their own decisions without the aid of ATC then they drive in. Personally I think it works just fine.
A big thanks to Popham for a fantastic event and long may it continue.
Last edited by S-Works; 5th May 2009 at 09:06.
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Completely agree Bose-X, I flew in around 10:30 am with a group of microlights from Ireland and it was busy, orderly but a bit chaotic. The radio instructions were 100% clear, join overhead, descend on the dead side, join downwind R/H for 21, QFE 1010, call final... 3 axis land long vacate at the top, flex wings on the numbers and vacate first left...pretty simple really.
If someone is not comfortable and experienced enough then arriving by car may be the way to go.
Popham for me is a proper aviation event, like the PFA rallies of old, without the H&S crap and hi-viz **** that goes with everyday life. It is refreshing to still have this type of event and you will find that the microlighting fraternity are among the most committed bunch of aviators with a sense of adventure.
The show itself was excellent, good trade stands, plenty of food stalls, and spending an hour lying on the grass on the flight line watching the landings was great fun. Some nice new toys on show, the seminars by the Gyro lads were very good, and the ability to go and test fly an aircraft by prospective clients is something that can't be found elsewhere at a show. All in all the show at Popham was excellent and it is the type of show the LAA need to run in order to get back to a proper national rally.
We took a mini flying holiday, 4 microlights flew from the North west of Ireland to Popham via quite a few airfields and logged over 15 hours flying, covering 1000NM of countryside in quite good weather, a very nice trip.
Jon
If someone is not comfortable and experienced enough then arriving by car may be the way to go.
Popham for me is a proper aviation event, like the PFA rallies of old, without the H&S crap and hi-viz **** that goes with everyday life. It is refreshing to still have this type of event and you will find that the microlighting fraternity are among the most committed bunch of aviators with a sense of adventure.
The show itself was excellent, good trade stands, plenty of food stalls, and spending an hour lying on the grass on the flight line watching the landings was great fun. Some nice new toys on show, the seminars by the Gyro lads were very good, and the ability to go and test fly an aircraft by prospective clients is something that can't be found elsewhere at a show. All in all the show at Popham was excellent and it is the type of show the LAA need to run in order to get back to a proper national rally.
We took a mini flying holiday, 4 microlights flew from the North west of Ireland to Popham via quite a few airfields and logged over 15 hours flying, covering 1000NM of countryside in quite good weather, a very nice trip.
Jon
Last edited by jonkil; 5th May 2009 at 09:54.
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Whilst a proper ATC service might be safer (to a degree), the primary effect of bringing one in would be to reduce the movements to a fraction of what this system achieves
It is a privilege that there are things where commonsense, and personal evaluation of the risks, are "allowed", and it seems that the Popham website gave due advice as to the risks and procedures.
Anyone who went, and then was unhappy with the risks / procedures, would seem to have either not briefed themselves, or been unable to assess the situation and delay / leave / stay on ground at the time
NoD
It is a privilege that there are things where commonsense, and personal evaluation of the risks, are "allowed", and it seems that the Popham website gave due advice as to the risks and procedures.
Anyone who went, and then was unhappy with the risks / procedures, would seem to have either not briefed themselves, or been unable to assess the situation and delay / leave / stay on ground at the time
NoD
The PFA rallies were mostly full ATC and achieved at least as many movements as Popham, but in a more orderly manner. A/G does not have the authority to send aircraft around when collision is imminent and seem to significantly overstep the mark where runway useage is concerned. Having flown in to both of these events on many ocasions - give me PFA any day.
Says it all and is a post-accident can-of-worms just waiting to be opened. They have merely been lucky this year (and previous years) but really should consider intoducing some more fail-safe procedures - not least to allow better runway utilisation legally.
I know my limits and when to disregard unsafe instructions, but I fear that many do not know theirs.
Do not ignore the Marshaller as he knows what he is doing and has a better view of the sky/traffic than you do!
I know my limits and when to disregard unsafe instructions, but I fear that many do not know theirs.
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I know my limits and when to disregard unsafe instructions, but I fear that many do not know theirs.
No point in arguing, you have made up your mind. Personally I thoroughly enjoyed myself as did everyone we went with and met.
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The PFA rallies were mostly full ATC and achieved at least as many movements as Popham
The only time they tried full ATC was when the CAA insisted they had it at Wroughton in 1990 or 91.
They dropped it half way through the first day..............
apparently people are still hearing faint radio calls from The Liddington Hold.
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As Windy says, the only time full ATC was used at a PFA rally it was a disaster and abandoned after a few hours. People were stuck in the Liddington Hold for hours and the Pan calls from people running short of fuel eventually caused a change of hart from the CAA. The rest of the event then worked fine.
Rod1
Rod1