Cirrus down in Kefallinia Greece - 2 dead
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Witness reports and time of events
These are the witness reports according to
kefaloniapress.gr - ??? ???????????? ?? ?????????? ??? kefalonia press ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ?? ?????????
moments before the accident that were being communicated to the on line newspaper staff as they evolved, times are Local :
20:15~20:20 Telephone calls regarding a "weird" plane flying low maneuvers above Mousata village houses making a lot of noise.
http://www.kefalonia-ithaca-hotels.g..._Map_final.jpg
20:25 similar telephone reports by Lourda village residents
21:00 sms message from Simotata village resident regarding a loud bang above their village
21:15 the authorities are mobilized and there is also a sea search under way from nearby vessels with flares
[Non essential events]
01:59 the pedestrian team on the mountain reports aircraft wreckage found
[Non essential events]
For the record, the LGZA departure was at 19:44L the sunset was at 20:11L hence official VMC/VFR day terminated at 20:41 L
Regarding the on going Icing discussion; in this case it does not seem to have been an icing case. The aircraft was maneuvering at low level for quite some time in and out of IMC (presumably), disorientated (again presumably) with decreasing day light and very close to high rising terrain.
The really sad thing is that Kefallinia LGKF airport is just 8nm WSW of the crash location with no terrain between it and Ainos mountain.
If the pilot was in control of the situation, in VMC and could have seen it an emergency landing would have saved the situation. The airport was open 08:00-09:30 & 20:00-21:45L (i.e. lights on) that Tuesday, during the time the sad events took place. It has a lit runway, a VOR on site but no Terminal Radar to help.
kefaloniapress.gr - ??? ???????????? ?? ?????????? ??? kefalonia press ?? ??????? ?????? ?? ?? ?????????
moments before the accident that were being communicated to the on line newspaper staff as they evolved, times are Local :
20:15~20:20 Telephone calls regarding a "weird" plane flying low maneuvers above Mousata village houses making a lot of noise.
http://www.kefalonia-ithaca-hotels.g..._Map_final.jpg
20:25 similar telephone reports by Lourda village residents
21:00 sms message from Simotata village resident regarding a loud bang above their village
21:15 the authorities are mobilized and there is also a sea search under way from nearby vessels with flares
[Non essential events]
01:59 the pedestrian team on the mountain reports aircraft wreckage found
[Non essential events]
For the record, the LGZA departure was at 19:44L the sunset was at 20:11L hence official VMC/VFR day terminated at 20:41 L
Regarding the on going Icing discussion; in this case it does not seem to have been an icing case. The aircraft was maneuvering at low level for quite some time in and out of IMC (presumably), disorientated (again presumably) with decreasing day light and very close to high rising terrain.
The really sad thing is that Kefallinia LGKF airport is just 8nm WSW of the crash location with no terrain between it and Ainos mountain.
If the pilot was in control of the situation, in VMC and could have seen it an emergency landing would have saved the situation. The airport was open 08:00-09:30 & 20:00-21:45L (i.e. lights on) that Tuesday, during the time the sad events took place. It has a lit runway, a VOR on site but no Terminal Radar to help.
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I think the Cirrus is a fantastic aircraft and I'd love one.
But there is one seemingly common factor amongst a lot of the Cirrus accidents - pilot experience and weather. I wonder if you get a lot of inexperienced pilots with enough money to buy one of these aircraft and then they don't really appreciate their or their aircraft limits? I know for a fact that in one recent incident the pilot was barely out of PPL (he trained with someone I know who has held a PPL for less than a year), yet apprently decided to try a flight that I would not have done VFR.
Mind you, you get this in all aircraft (ref: PA28) , it is just I wonder whether the avionics / AP's / whatever may "encourage" this sort of behavior from a low houred pilot?...or whether it is just coincidence...It could also be something to do with the "mission profile" of these aeroplanes - if you own a Cirrus, you typically don't just fly for a £200 burger.
Now I just need to find out who owns that N reg Cirrus at Henstridge
But there is one seemingly common factor amongst a lot of the Cirrus accidents - pilot experience and weather. I wonder if you get a lot of inexperienced pilots with enough money to buy one of these aircraft and then they don't really appreciate their or their aircraft limits? I know for a fact that in one recent incident the pilot was barely out of PPL (he trained with someone I know who has held a PPL for less than a year), yet apprently decided to try a flight that I would not have done VFR.
Mind you, you get this in all aircraft (ref: PA28) , it is just I wonder whether the avionics / AP's / whatever may "encourage" this sort of behavior from a low houred pilot?...or whether it is just coincidence...It could also be something to do with the "mission profile" of these aeroplanes - if you own a Cirrus, you typically don't just fly for a £200 burger.
Now I just need to find out who owns that N reg Cirrus at Henstridge
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Without specifc reference to this accident if an aircraft was operating low level trying to avoid IMC it could be a case of a pilot attempting to maintain VMC either because of lack of instrument training or for some other reason such as a PFD failure. In such situations CFIT would be an obvious risk.
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Englishal
There is some evidence to support your contention. Indeed that is the reason why in the States most insurance firms require the pilot to undertake additional training on type - since doing so the accident / incident rate has improved significantly. The same is true in the UK for most group operators, although I suspect you will still get insurance here as a sole owner without type specific training.
The Cirrus is very capable and is frequently used because of its ability to take on "serious" missions. Its as quick as almost any single and the avionics can lull you into a false sense of security.
Of course when it comes to weather it is just another light single. A little more power than most, and a little more substance that many, but factors that in fact will add up to diddly squat - it is still very much a light single without a great deal of redundancy.
In fact in the Avidyne configuration when the PFD goes phut you will be flying the aircraft on autopilot and / or standby AI and not a lot else so you had better make sure your limited panel is up to the job.
From a flying point of view treat it as yet another light single and dont do anything in it you wouldnt do in a Warrior and you cant go too far wrong. By doing so, if nothing goes wrong, you will find it a significantly quicker, far far more comfortable and pleasant, and the avionics and auto pilot will spoil you for the whole flight!
In fact flying with a mate recently who is on 747s he commented you have got one hell of a lot more kit that we have - I didnt like to mention that we only really have one of everything though.
(Actually we do have two alternators, and two 430s, but I will trade them for one of his four engines any time!)
There is some evidence to support your contention. Indeed that is the reason why in the States most insurance firms require the pilot to undertake additional training on type - since doing so the accident / incident rate has improved significantly. The same is true in the UK for most group operators, although I suspect you will still get insurance here as a sole owner without type specific training.
The Cirrus is very capable and is frequently used because of its ability to take on "serious" missions. Its as quick as almost any single and the avionics can lull you into a false sense of security.
Of course when it comes to weather it is just another light single. A little more power than most, and a little more substance that many, but factors that in fact will add up to diddly squat - it is still very much a light single without a great deal of redundancy.
In fact in the Avidyne configuration when the PFD goes phut you will be flying the aircraft on autopilot and / or standby AI and not a lot else so you had better make sure your limited panel is up to the job.
From a flying point of view treat it as yet another light single and dont do anything in it you wouldnt do in a Warrior and you cant go too far wrong. By doing so, if nothing goes wrong, you will find it a significantly quicker, far far more comfortable and pleasant, and the avionics and auto pilot will spoil you for the whole flight!
In fact flying with a mate recently who is on 747s he commented you have got one hell of a lot more kit that we have - I didnt like to mention that we only really have one of everything though.
(Actually we do have two alternators, and two 430s, but I will trade them for one of his four engines any time!)
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Fuji Abound
“Without specifc reference to this accident if an aircraft was operating low level trying to avoid IMC it could be a case of a pilot attempting to maintain VMC either because of lack of instrument training “
That does not square with the IFR legs flown just before the final flight.
Rod1
“Without specifc reference to this accident if an aircraft was operating low level trying to avoid IMC it could be a case of a pilot attempting to maintain VMC either because of lack of instrument training “
That does not square with the IFR legs flown just before the final flight.
Rod1
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Rod1 - no it doesnt, I agree, I had missed the earlier comment about an original IFR departure.
In the UK of course an IFR departure by a non instrument rated pilot would have been legal but I assume this would not have been so from Israel (it did orginate in Israel I think).
Purely speculation but it is possible the pilot had some other good reason as I suggested for maintaining VMC if, as the report suggest, he was attempting to do so.
Who knows. We dont have enough information. Pure speculation I am afraid.
At least it is more than likely ice was not a factor unless the pilot maintained control of an iced up airframe and was hoping to rid himself of ice below the freezing level - would seem a bit far fetched.
In the UK of course an IFR departure by a non instrument rated pilot would have been legal but I assume this would not have been so from Israel (it did orginate in Israel I think).
Purely speculation but it is possible the pilot had some other good reason as I suggested for maintaining VMC if, as the report suggest, he was attempting to do so.
Who knows. We dont have enough information. Pure speculation I am afraid.
At least it is more than likely ice was not a factor unless the pilot maintained control of an iced up airframe and was hoping to rid himself of ice below the freezing level - would seem a bit far fetched.
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Sure a decent plane will expand the mission capability, both technically and psychologically, but a pilot should still be trained adequately to make the go versus no-go decision according to appropriate technical weather criteria.
Many people criticise these nice planes (an SR22 is "nice" even if I prefer my TB20 ) for allegedly luring pilots to their deaths, and I am sure there is a lot of truth in this. But the answer is much improved training. Not just a "G1000 type rating" which is more or less what one can get. One needs to train a comprehensive "IFR GA weather package".
A lot of people do all kinds of dodgy flights (not suggesting this accident was a dodgy flight) and this spreads the word in the GA community that all kinds of things are possible. Well, they are possible 99% of the time. On your last flight is when you get boxed in by some combination of factors.
Many people criticise these nice planes (an SR22 is "nice" even if I prefer my TB20
) for allegedly luring pilots to their deaths, and I am sure there is a lot of truth in this. But the answer is much improved training. Not just a "G1000 type rating" which is more or less what one can get. One needs to train a comprehensive "IFR GA weather package".A lot of people do all kinds of dodgy flights (not suggesting this accident was a dodgy flight) and this spreads the word in the GA community that all kinds of things are possible. Well, they are possible 99% of the time. On your last flight is when you get boxed in by some combination of factors.
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Fuji
I am delighted that the Cirrus ice system is now fully approved as that approval must have been recent.
I wonder how much the ballistic shute system encourages low time and fairly inexperienced pilots to push on in conditions they would not normally take with the idea that if everything goes pear shaped there is always the shute.
I know the shute was not used but possibly the pilot had not got to the stage where he felt inclined to use the last resort.
The Cirrus is pretty reactive in roll and fairly hard work in IMC especially where the auto is off as would be where the pilot was trying to maintain VMC in poor vis dodging in and out of cloud.
Great plane though and I would love to own one especially the new variety which had a mass of improvements
Pace
I am delighted that the Cirrus ice system is now fully approved as that approval must have been recent.
I wonder how much the ballistic shute system encourages low time and fairly inexperienced pilots to push on in conditions they would not normally take with the idea that if everything goes pear shaped there is always the shute.
I know the shute was not used but possibly the pilot had not got to the stage where he felt inclined to use the last resort.
The Cirrus is pretty reactive in roll and fairly hard work in IMC especially where the auto is off as would be where the pilot was trying to maintain VMC in poor vis dodging in and out of cloud.
Great plane though and I would love to own one especially the new variety which had a mass of improvements
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 30th Apr 2009 at 16:49.
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As I posted earlier these were COPA members enroute to ELBA and I did not personally know them but it will certainly influence the fly in this weekend and I believe it is the first time there has been such a trajedy connected to an official COPA meeting, I have taken this link from the COPA web site as for me it allways makes me think even harder about what we can learn from these situations when it is more personal.
Nahum Sharfman, Founder Of Shopping.com, Perishes In Plane Crash
Seems like a very successful guy, RIP to both of them
"A successful entrepreneur, Sharfman founded Shopping.com which he brought to a successful IPO in 2004. Shopping.com was later acquired by eBay for $650 million. Earlier, Sharfman co-founded Commtouch
and also brought the security technology company to an IPO in 2000. Prior to starting his own ventures, Sharfman spent 11 years working for National Semiconductor. He received a Ph.D. in High Energy Nuclear Physics from Carnegie Mellon University and M.S. and B.S. degrees in Physics from the Technion, the Israel Institute of Technology. Sharfman was also chairman of social content sharing site enips. "
Nahum Sharfman, Founder Of Shopping.com, Perishes In Plane Crash
Seems like a very successful guy, RIP to both of them
"A successful entrepreneur, Sharfman founded Shopping.com which he brought to a successful IPO in 2004. Shopping.com was later acquired by eBay for $650 million. Earlier, Sharfman co-founded Commtouch
and also brought the security technology company to an IPO in 2000. Prior to starting his own ventures, Sharfman spent 11 years working for National Semiconductor. He received a Ph.D. in High Energy Nuclear Physics from Carnegie Mellon University and M.S. and B.S. degrees in Physics from the Technion, the Israel Institute of Technology. Sharfman was also chairman of social content sharing site enips. "
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Pace
Knowing your experience I am surprised by your comment. Have you flown a Cirrus? It is more reactive in roll than a Cessna or Piper but that is not saying a lot - it is less reactive than many other types. When demoing a Cirrus pilots love to demonstrate how stable it is and how easy it is to fly. I think the only aspect of the handling which would surprise a reasonable experienced pilot is the time the aircraft takes to slow down, and, in operational terms, if they are use to 100 knots, adjusting to the extra speed of the scenery passing the window. Slow the aircraft to 100 knot and it really isnt much different from your average spam cam.
He may have felt he was too low by then to deploy, or he may have been reluctant to do so aware of the consequences, and in belief the situation was under control.
That is a more difficult and interesting question.
I think the suggestion is over done. If anything I think it is the avionics suite and the autopilot which might encourage pilots weak on instruments to operate in IMC which is all very well until there is a systems issue.
The Cirrus is pretty reactive in roll and fairly hard work in IMC especially where the auto is off as would be where the pilot was trying to maintain VMC in poor vis dodging in and out of cloud.
I know the shute was not used but possibly the pilot had not got to the stage where he felt inclined to use the last resort.
I wonder how much the ballistic shute system encourages low time and fairly inexperienced pilots to push on in conditions they would not normally take with the idea that if everything goes pear shaped there is always the shute.
I think the suggestion is over done. If anything I think it is the avionics suite and the autopilot which might encourage pilots weak on instruments to operate in IMC which is all very well until there is a systems issue.
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Knowing your experience I am surprised by your comment. Have you flown a Cirrus?
I have flown the 20 and 22 only a handfull of times so far from an expert on them.
I do have a Ferry pilot friend who has ferried a number of the aircraft. His comments were that the earlier ones can be hardwork in IMC handflown.
The latest ones had a number of changes. I believe one was an increase in the DIhedral? and a change to the wingtips but you would be better placed to verify that.
Pace
