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help Trying to plan a flight from EGSR to Bucharest
I need some advice looking to fly a Cessna 172 from EGSR to Bucharest Romania LRBS
Can you guys recommend any routes bearing in mind I only have Mode 'C'
Cheers
Can you guys recommend any routes bearing in mind I only have Mode 'C'
Cheers
Last edited by jxc; 20th Apr 2009 at 19:11.
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I can give you a Eurocontrol validated airways route e.g.
EGSR CLN M189 DVR L9 KONAN L607 GELPA/N0148F120 L607 RUDUS/N0155F100 L984 OKL M748 DEGET/N0133F170 M748 ARPOS/N0155F100 W85 DVA T2 UREKI/N0151F110 L851 DIPIN M977 BEDRI LRBS
1170nm
but you will have a job flying it with a C172 without a ferry tank
Also somebody will need to do some serious donkeywork to see where you can go without Mode S.
Perhaps you meant VFR? That will involve looking through a load of VFR charts, plus a lot of donkeywork around the national AIPs. It's easier to fit Mode S.
EGSR CLN M189 DVR L9 KONAN L607 GELPA/N0148F120 L607 RUDUS/N0155F100 L984 OKL M748 DEGET/N0133F170 M748 ARPOS/N0155F100 W85 DVA T2 UREKI/N0151F110 L851 DIPIN M977 BEDRI LRBS
1170nm
but you will have a job flying it with a C172 without a ferry tank
Also somebody will need to do some serious donkeywork to see where you can go without Mode S.Perhaps you meant VFR? That will involve looking through a load of VFR charts, plus a lot of donkeywork around the national AIPs. It's easier to fit Mode S.
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Sorry forgot to mention that small detail VFR
I thought about going france top of Italy Across to Croatia, Serbia and then into the south west of Romania to Craiova then on in to Bucharest should also miss the highest parts of the Carpathian mountains
I thought about going france top of Italy Across to Croatia, Serbia and then into the south west of Romania to Craiova then on in to Bucharest should also miss the highest parts of the Carpathian mountains
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IFR or VFR? If the latter, from what I've read here in the past, you need some sort of prior authorisation. I don't know how easy it is to get, but I believe posters Van Horck (and possibly IO540?) had some details.
Are you planning on doing it all in one day? A quick calculation shows that it might be feasible if you depart very early. Assuming EGSR opens at say, 05:00 local and you can be in the air half an hour latter, you could with luck make LRBS by 19:00-ish local.
Sensibly you would require two fuel stops along the way, e.g., one in Germany & one in Hungary, although with careful planning on a good day you might be able to get away with just one stop in Southern Germany, but that appears to me like pushing it a bit.
This is all assuming you are VFR. Needless to say, flying IFR would be recommended for this trip--for a start, you do not have to worry about sunset (I very much doubt night VFR is permitted at all in Romania), on top of that, your routing would be fairly direct (FPP shows only a 7% excess over the GC route if flying airways). Lastly, life's just so much easier flying IFR
I do not have any VFR charts for Northern Germany with me at the moment, but from what I can see on the charts I do have (ED, LK, LO, LH) and from previous experience in the South, you should not be hitting anything too complicated in terms of airspace at least until you enter Romania (I do not think there are any VFR charts at all for it). Even so, if going VFR I would plan on a) making sure you can fly in Romania at all, and b) making my way there over two days.
As for the transponder bit (which is what your question was about after all), you would have to check the relevant AIP, or perhaps easier, call a couple of ATS offices in the countries concerned. I had mode S already last time I was in the area about six months ago so not familiar with specifics.
Hope this helps
Are you planning on doing it all in one day? A quick calculation shows that it might be feasible if you depart very early. Assuming EGSR opens at say, 05:00 local and you can be in the air half an hour latter, you could with luck make LRBS by 19:00-ish local.
Sensibly you would require two fuel stops along the way, e.g., one in Germany & one in Hungary, although with careful planning on a good day you might be able to get away with just one stop in Southern Germany, but that appears to me like pushing it a bit.
This is all assuming you are VFR. Needless to say, flying IFR would be recommended for this trip--for a start, you do not have to worry about sunset (I very much doubt night VFR is permitted at all in Romania), on top of that, your routing would be fairly direct (FPP shows only a 7% excess over the GC route if flying airways). Lastly, life's just so much easier flying IFR
I do not have any VFR charts for Northern Germany with me at the moment, but from what I can see on the charts I do have (ED, LK, LO, LH) and from previous experience in the South, you should not be hitting anything too complicated in terms of airspace at least until you enter Romania (I do not think there are any VFR charts at all for it). Even so, if going VFR I would plan on a) making sure you can fly in Romania at all, and b) making my way there over two days.
As for the transponder bit (which is what your question was about after all
), you would have to check the relevant AIP, or perhaps easier, call a couple of ATS offices in the countries concerned. I had mode S already last time I was in the area about six months ago so not familiar with specifics.Hope this helps
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What is the range of a C172? Maybe 300nm or so, assuming flow rate is the usual semi-unknown factor. This flight is about 1200nm so several fuel stops.
I am sending jxc some trip report URLs which give the general idea, but basically you start with the Jepp 1:500k VFR charts, and then move to the US (1995-1998 last updated) ONC 1:1M charts, and tape the whole lot together on the floor of one's lounge. Get a long piece of wood and draw lines. With VFR, one plans two routes: one wholly OCAS, and one which one will fly if one gets CAS transits. Obviously a decent GPS is a must unless one is a masochist.
One needs to transpose the essential CAS shapes onto the ONC charts (because they don't show CAS) and this can come from either Navbox or from the Jepp IFR charts. It gets pretty messy.
I've been VFR as far as the far end of Crete and managed that with just one ONC chart, covering the bit after Croatia.
Mode C will probably be OK for VFR. South of the Alps, and keeping away from Italian controllers (who tend to not know what they are doing) nobody really cares much what you are doing...
The Alps can be crossed obviously to the east or to the west. The eastern crossing (from Austria) is more on the route. However a C172 should, if light, be able to go straight over the top from Switzerland, with oxygen.
It's no rocket science but long VFR trips like this need a lot of planning. Unless one is retired, in which case no planning is required
And a good GPS because these are not places to get lost like one can do in the UK.
I am sending jxc some trip report URLs which give the general idea, but basically you start with the Jepp 1:500k VFR charts, and then move to the US (1995-1998 last updated) ONC 1:1M charts, and tape the whole lot together on the floor of one's lounge. Get a long piece of wood and draw lines. With VFR, one plans two routes: one wholly OCAS, and one which one will fly if one gets CAS transits. Obviously a decent GPS is a must unless one is a masochist.
One needs to transpose the essential CAS shapes onto the ONC charts (because they don't show CAS) and this can come from either Navbox or from the Jepp IFR charts. It gets pretty messy.
I've been VFR as far as the far end of Crete and managed that with just one ONC chart, covering the bit after Croatia.
Mode C will probably be OK for VFR. South of the Alps, and keeping away from Italian controllers (who tend to not know what they are doing) nobody really cares much what you are doing...
The Alps can be crossed obviously to the east or to the west. The eastern crossing (from Austria) is more on the route. However a C172 should, if light, be able to go straight over the top from Switzerland, with oxygen.
It's no rocket science but long VFR trips like this need a lot of planning. Unless one is retired, in which case no planning is required
And a good GPS because these are not places to get lost like one can do in the UK.
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Apologies, I hadn't seen the previous replies (IO's and yours).
The route you propose definitely takes two days. A fuel and overnight stop in France would be required (somewhere like Chambéry, for example, so you have the range to get to Slovenia), then an early start the next day should see you in Romania in the afternoon. Overnighting in Croatia would be another option, but that relies on your making an early enough start from England so you cross the Alps in broad daylight--even so, it's preferable to cross in the morning due to atmospheric stability. It can get annoyingly rough latter in the day.
Can the aeroplane do IFR? If so, taking an IFR-rated pilot with you might be your best if not only bet.
The route you propose definitely takes two days. A fuel and overnight stop in France would be required (somewhere like Chambéry, for example, so you have the range to get to Slovenia), then an early start the next day should see you in Romania in the afternoon. Overnighting in Croatia would be another option, but that relies on your making an early enough start from England so you cross the Alps in broad daylight--even so, it's preferable to cross in the morning due to atmospheric stability. It can get annoyingly rough latter in the day.
Can the aeroplane do IFR? If so, taking an IFR-rated pilot with you might be your best if not only bet.
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What is the range of a C172?
I've done the part UK-Austria a couple of times VFR, no big deal. Don't know what it's like further east. Of course, there are always exceptions, but CAS transit tends to be an issue mainly in the UK, on the continent you tend to get it w/o much hassle.
For coverage of Jepp VFR charts see here.
One thing I'd like to draw your attention to is the ELT issue. Check what you need where. Mode S has already been mentioned.
Sounds like a nice two/three-day trip - enjoy!
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Just a few precisions here. While agreeing with the sentiment of what IO540 says, I'm going to pick on some of the details:
...presumably you do split it all back apart before you get in the aircraft? Must be quite a sight otherwise 
To be honest, it is usually pretty clear where you can and where you cannot go VFR in Europe. The tend to make the serious stuff class A so that's quite simply no go. There are also a few other places where you will be routed along corridors (e.g., Marseille), or where you would not count on getting a transit (e.g., Genève), but for the most part you are cleared through classes C and D as a matter of course.
From a very cursory look at jxc's possible routes, the "direct" route only has to contend with Brussels and Vienna. His other idea of going through France and Italy involves a detour around Paris airspace and being a bit careful not to get too close to Geneva. In any event, I think trying to plan an entire trip like this OCAS is absolute overkill.
I crossed all of Western Europe and back not only without a GPS, but without a working DI as well, and yes I am a masochist (I like to call it "character") [I also crossed half of Italy without a map, btw, but that's a different story ]
However, if you do carry a GPS of some description where you can enter your waypoints and follow the arrow, it obviously makes life so much easier, but the alternative is not a showstopper by any means.
I don't have any experience of navigating outside the coverage of existing VFR charts so I can't comment, but since ONC charts don't show airspace or much of anything anyway, and they tend to be horribly out of date, wouldn't it be preferrable to use instead a Michelin road map in the way you suggest?
I have to say, on my flights in Northern Italy ATC have been most helpful and always on the ball, but I'm aware that my opinion is in the minority.
I was thinking going through the valleys, but I realise that's not an option for someone without mountain experience, breath-taking as it is. Completely avoiding the Alps leaves two options I can think of: one is flying to Cannes (which in a C172 requires one stopover), then crossing Italy north of Bologna towards Slovenia, the other is as you suggest, via Austria pretty much anywhere East of Innsbruck.
Alternatively, you could cross from Chambéry to Aosta at FL100 without much difficulty. If you're going to consider this, send me a PM and I'll give you proper gen. Of course, you would then need to be careful with Milan, as from memory I seem to remember there was some fairly restrictive airspace there.
Indeed.
Actually, you are under radar coverage practically all of the way. They tend to call you if you don't appear to be going where you told them you were going.
172Driver,
Agreed. I based my calculations on a range of 400nm just for the sake of argument. That's about as far as I can sensibly go with the Hawk XP I use.
Good point
basically you start with the Jepp 1:500k VFR charts, and then move to the US (1995-1998 last updated) ONC 1:1M charts, and tape the whole lot together on the floor of one's lounge. Get a long piece of wood and draw lines.
With VFR, one plans two routes: one wholly OCAS, and one which one will fly if one gets CAS transits.
From a very cursory look at jxc's possible routes, the "direct" route only has to contend with Brussels and Vienna. His other idea of going through France and Italy involves a detour around Paris airspace and being a bit careful not to get too close to Geneva. In any event, I think trying to plan an entire trip like this OCAS is absolute overkill.
Obviously a decent GPS is a must unless one is a masochist.
[I also crossed half of Italy without a map, btw, but that's a different story ]However, if you do carry a GPS of some description where you can enter your waypoints and follow the arrow, it obviously makes life so much easier, but the alternative is not a showstopper by any means.
One needs to transpose the essential CAS shapes onto the ONC charts (because they don't show CAS) and this can come from either Navbox or from the Jepp IFR charts. It gets pretty messy.
South of the Alps, and keeping away from Italian controllers (who tend to not know what they are doing) nobody really cares much what you are doing...
The Alps can be crossed obviously to the east or to the west. The eastern crossing (from Austria) is more on the route. However a C172 should, if light, be able to go straight over the top from Switzerland, with oxygen.
Alternatively, you could cross from Chambéry to Aosta at FL100 without much difficulty. If you're going to consider this, send me a PM and I'll give you proper gen. Of course, you would then need to be careful with Milan, as from memory I seem to remember there was some fairly restrictive airspace there.
It's no rocket science but long VFR trips like this need a lot of planning.
Unless one is retired, in which case no planning is required
Unless one is retired, in which case no planning is required
And a good GPS because these are not places to get lost like one can do in the UK.
172Driver,
How long's a piece of string? They vary wildly, anything from about 3 1/2 hours to 6 hours to dry tanks.
One thing I'd like to draw your attention to is the ELT issue. Check what you need where
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LH2, my experience of getting CAS transits was more sporadic than you suggest.
Belgium was easy, Germany is easy enough anyway, Swizerland would not let me into its Class C (even though I was ~ 1500ft above the peaks in places), in Italy one ATCO would clear me A-B-C-D (all in CAS) and at B hand me over to another ATCO who ordered me to remain OCAS
resulting in an instant dogleg out of CAS and me spending the rest of the Italian transit way out over the sea, near Croatia. Croatia is very easy and a piece of cake to fly in.
It would be a bold pilot who just plans a route across Europe right through CAS. It might work... but all you need is one ATCO who got off the wrong side of the bed that morning, and you need a 2nd pair of trousers (and a good GPS).
I haven't yet been further east (say Bulgaria) will will be doing Istanbul (via one fuel stop in Slovakia) this year. Regrettably this will all be IFR.
Belgium was easy, Germany is easy enough anyway, Swizerland would not let me into its Class C (even though I was ~ 1500ft above the peaks in places), in Italy one ATCO would clear me A-B-C-D (all in CAS) and at B hand me over to another ATCO who ordered me to remain OCAS
resulting in an instant dogleg out of CAS and me spending the rest of the Italian transit way out over the sea, near Croatia. Croatia is very easy and a piece of cake to fly in. It would be a bold pilot who just plans a route across Europe right through CAS. It might work... but all you need is one ATCO who got off the wrong side of the bed that morning, and you need a 2nd pair of trousers (and a good GPS).
I haven't yet been further east (say Bulgaria) will will be doing Istanbul (via one fuel stop in Slovakia) this year. Regrettably this will all be IFR.
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it will VFR I have a PLB Lifejackets etc and would using PocketFms on a nice 5" screen,
The route that I am looking at at the moment not planned the fuel stops yet ! burns 8.5usg per hour in the cruise
EGSR
LFAT
Reims
Dijon
Chambery
Torino
Parma
Zadar (nice flying over Croatian Islands )
Beograd ( GA airport
Craiova
Bucharest LRBS
From a couple of brief emails with a flying school in romania VFR is allowed just need to file a flight plan 24hours in advance
Serbia yet to find out if any problems
Croatia no problems as far as i can see
The route that I am looking at at the moment not planned the fuel stops yet ! burns 8.5usg per hour in the cruise
EGSR
LFAT
Reims
Dijon
Chambery
Torino
Parma
Zadar (nice flying over Croatian Islands )
Beograd ( GA airport
Craiova
Bucharest LRBS
From a couple of brief emails with a flying school in romania VFR is allowed just need to file a flight plan 24hours in advance
Serbia yet to find out if any problems
Croatia no problems as far as i can see
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Regrettably this will all be IFR.
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Chambery is a good night stop. There is a hotel 200m away that takes on-line bookings, and a 15-20 min walk down to the lakeside at Bourget to find a restaurant with lakeside terrace.
I'd suggest Cuneo rather than Torino/Caselle. Cheaper, less officious and Avgas available (usually). Crossing over via Modane, MonCenisio pass and Susa valley is usually possible at 9000' in the morning before any cloud build up. That route keeps the forced landing options open for most of the alpine crossing.
I'd suggest Cuneo rather than Torino/Caselle. Cheaper, less officious and Avgas available (usually). Crossing over via Modane, MonCenisio pass and Susa valley is usually possible at 9000' in the morning before any cloud build up. That route keeps the forced landing options open for most of the alpine crossing.
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IO540 said
EGSR CLN M189 DVR L9 KONAN L607 GELPA/N0148F120 L607 RUDUS/N0155F100 L984 OKL M748 DEGET/N0133F170 M748 ARPOS/N0155F100 W85 DVA T2 UREKI/N0151F110 L851 DIPIN M977 BEDRI LRBS
but you will have a job flying it with a C172 without a ferry tank
He'd have a heck of a job flying that plan without a couple more cylinders, 100% more HP, a turbo and some oxygen as well
EGSR CLN M189 DVR L9 KONAN L607 GELPA/N0148F120 L607 RUDUS/N0155F100 L984 OKL M748 DEGET/N0133F170 M748 ARPOS/N0155F100 W85 DVA T2 UREKI/N0151F110 L851 DIPIN M977 BEDRI LRBS
but you will have a job flying it with a C172 without a ferry tank
He'd have a heck of a job flying that plan without a couple more cylinders, 100% more HP, a turbo and some oxygen as well
