Oop t'North
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Landing aircraft have priority. However, if he declared "finals" and then immediately reckoned that he had to go around because you entered the runway , then it would appear that his "finals" call was far too late. If he had called finals in good time on a proper full circuit, then you should not have created a problem for him. It is hardly reasonable to criticise someone who lines up having cleared the conventional approach path visually, only to find another aircraft making making some sort of egg shaped swooping circuit and only calling finals when almost at the theshold.
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Sherburn
We went to Sherburn for the 1st time on Saturday. The radio does leave a bit to be desired, but no better or worse than a lot of other GA fields that we've been to. The 1st call was answered with the runway in use and the QFE. However no other calls were answered, so we just did a standard overhead join, with calls as appropriate, landed, and found somewhere to park. The cafe was OK, and on departure we asked for a radio check and airfield info, which we received. After that it was back to blind calls.
All in all, a friendly place with good grub. We'll certainly go back one day.
Regarding Elvington, they only seem to man the 'phone during the week, so calling on a Saturday morning won't work! I spoke to someone during the week and had approval to visit on the Saturday. When we arrived, there was no response to our calls on the radio, so I did a circuit with a low approach and overshoot 1st to have a look at it. We then landed and back-tracked, wondering where we should park up. After a few moments, we observed an old pickup truck with an amber light on approaching us. I slowed down, and then it turned round and went back the way he'd come.... A follow me vehicle, perhaps? It was indeed just that!
After securing the aircraft we walked the few hundred yards to the museum and enjoyed a good 4 hours there before returning to base.
I hope you'll come and have another trip up north, Wombat, we're usually a pretty friendly bunch....
RF
All in all, a friendly place with good grub. We'll certainly go back one day.
Regarding Elvington, they only seem to man the 'phone during the week, so calling on a Saturday morning won't work! I spoke to someone during the week and had approval to visit on the Saturday. When we arrived, there was no response to our calls on the radio, so I did a circuit with a low approach and overshoot 1st to have a look at it. We then landed and back-tracked, wondering where we should park up. After a few moments, we observed an old pickup truck with an amber light on approaching us. I slowed down, and then it turned round and went back the way he'd come.... A follow me vehicle, perhaps? It was indeed just that!
After securing the aircraft we walked the few hundred yards to the museum and enjoyed a good 4 hours there before returning to base.
I hope you'll come and have another trip up north, Wombat, we're usually a pretty friendly bunch....
RF
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How long after his "final" call did he go around? If it was less than about forty five seconds, he either:
A) Went round early (I would be happy to continue with "one on" until about 200 feet agl in a fixed wing).
Or
B) Called final too late.
Every pilot has to go around sometimes, it shouldn't be a major issue for a competent and reasonable pilot with a reasonable ego.
A) Went round early (I would be happy to continue with "one on" until about 200 feet agl in a fixed wing).
Or
B) Called final too late.
Every pilot has to go around sometimes, it shouldn't be a major issue for a competent and reasonable pilot with a reasonable ego.
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I happen to know that the aircraft on final was a pre solo student with an experienced instructor practicing flapless circuits. The students calls may have been late but would have been made and a final call was made after the ready for departure call - so you must have missed this. The student would be instructed to go around at 300ft if the runway is not clear.
No big deal though - we all make mistakes, sometimes we fail to see aircraft on approach (especially when they are lower than you expect to see them - flapless - or perhaps higher as in glide approaches), it is a training airfield with lots of non standard/normal approaches. But you made your calls and the student made a safe and timely go-around.
Just a note on A/G radio. There is no requirement for response to any calls other than those requesting airfield information. All other calls are effectively made blind and are for the purposes of other pilots in the facinity of the airfield. If other A/G airfields choose to respond to such calls that's up to them but is not a requirement. Everything is at the pilots discretion and hense all the more important that we all use our eyes and ears. I know this is disconcerting to those more used to controlled airfields but its all part of aviations rich tapistry.
No big deal though - we all make mistakes, sometimes we fail to see aircraft on approach (especially when they are lower than you expect to see them - flapless - or perhaps higher as in glide approaches), it is a training airfield with lots of non standard/normal approaches. But you made your calls and the student made a safe and timely go-around.
Just a note on A/G radio. There is no requirement for response to any calls other than those requesting airfield information. All other calls are effectively made blind and are for the purposes of other pilots in the facinity of the airfield. If other A/G airfields choose to respond to such calls that's up to them but is not a requirement. Everything is at the pilots discretion and hense all the more important that we all use our eyes and ears. I know this is disconcerting to those more used to controlled airfields but its all part of aviations rich tapistry.
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Originally Posted by Ringway Flyer
The radio does leave a bit to be desired,
Originally Posted by Ringway Flyer
The 1st call was answered with the runway in use and the QFE. However no other calls were answered, so we just did a standard overhead join, with calls as appropriate, landed, and found somewhere to park. The cafe was OK, and on departure we asked for a radio check and airfield info, which we received. After that it was back to blind calls.
Heaven forbid that anyone might take their life in their hands and land when the office staff have gone home.
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The students calls may have been late but would have been made and a final call was made after the ready for departure call - so you must have missed this.
Me: "ready for departure"
Wait a while, nobody said anything.
Me, having seen nothing on the approach, as I crossed the hold: "lining up".
Them: "final"
Me, following logic described earlier "taking off"
Them: "thanks very much, you just made us go around"
Me: "very sorry, didn't see anyone, didn't hear anyone"
Them: "we called final after you called lining up"
Me: "but I'd already crossed the hold by then"
If they are now remembering that they called final before I called "lining up" then that's not what I heard at the time and that's not what they said at the time. Or, of course, maybe they're referring to a different incident.
How long after his "final" call did he go around? If it was less than about forty five seconds
sometimes we fail to see aircraft on approach (especially when they are lower than you expect to see them - flapless
Just a note on A/G radio. There is no requirement for response to any calls other than those requesting airfield information. All other calls are effectively made blind and are for the purposes of other pilots in the facinity of the airfield.
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we called final after you called lining up
"thanks very much, you just made us go around"
The fact that a flying instructor was on board at the time imho upsets me just a little bit more.
JR
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For the avoidance of doubt, things would almost certainly had gone better had I not failed, for whatever reason, to see the other aircraft, for which I apologise.
The question I was trying to ask was: "when I became aware of the other aircraft, after having crossed the hold line, was there any point in my stopping rather than proceeding to take off?"
The clear answer I'm hearing is "no, an occupied runway is an occupied runway at an A/G airfield just like it is at an ATC airfield, so if you had stopped they couldn't, shouldn't and wouldn't have landed anyway".
That wasn't the impression I got from the instructor. I got the impression that he had wanted me to stop, on the taxiway but past the hold line, so that he could land anyway.
The question I was trying to ask was: "when I became aware of the other aircraft, after having crossed the hold line, was there any point in my stopping rather than proceeding to take off?"
The clear answer I'm hearing is "no, an occupied runway is an occupied runway at an A/G airfield just like it is at an ATC airfield, so if you had stopped they couldn't, shouldn't and wouldn't have landed anyway".
That wasn't the impression I got from the instructor. I got the impression that he had wanted me to stop, on the taxiway but past the hold line, so that he could land anyway.
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Seems to me the worst part of the whole episode was the unprofessional rejoinder over the RT by the instructor. A pre-solo student must be able to go around safely from any type of approach so it was good practice for him/her with an instructor on board.
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No point beating yourself up about this gertrude. I have flown from Sherburn for around 5 years now. Ok, you didn't see the aircraft on final, it is often hard to spot aircraft on final, what runway was in use? 24 is especialy difficult to see aircraft on final. If it was 29, thats not bad but they are still missable. You entered the active, and at that point the aircraft on final has to make the decision to go around or not. Your turning back off the active onto the taxiway is a non starter, I wouldn't even try. What if something goes wrong? Far better a go around than a prop strike or other incident. The instructor or student should have kept there mouths shut in my opinion, especially on a go-around and your take-off which requires alot of concentration. Last thing you want is an insult coming through your headset. Had I been the CFI, I would have been having words with the instructor/student on landing. Not professional, and not becoming of an instructor!
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Gerturde, no big deal, no harm done, perhaps things could have been done differently on both sides. - mopve on and worry about important things, not trivial ones.
Get over yourself, if you don't know how to do 'airmanship' at an A/G field, maybe you should be having some instructor time yourself!
Get over yourself, if you don't know how to do 'airmanship' at an A/G field, maybe you should be having some instructor time yourself!
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Maybe start a new trend?!
A good thing I've heard here in the US (as you all shudder!) on "unicom" frequencies (similar to A/G, but where 1 frequency may be in use at 4+ fields) sounds like this:
Aircraft at hold: "Coolidge traffic (name of airport, not required in UK as it's obvious, and there's only one frequency at each field), Bonanza '345 holding short runway 23, anybody on base or final, please advise, Coolidge." (field name said again in case you missed it the first time)
A good idea, which gives people chance to speak up. Don't you think?
What's wrong with saying something like that if in doubt?! ie, "G-OE holding short 29, anyone on base or final please advise." Then, if you don't hear ought, cross the hold (call lining up/taking off etc) and do one! At least this way, you're covering your ass.
Just my tuppence worth, and if I'm ever back in the UK, you'll hear me using that phraseology on A/G if there's any doubt.
Aircraft at hold: "Coolidge traffic (name of airport, not required in UK as it's obvious, and there's only one frequency at each field), Bonanza '345 holding short runway 23, anybody on base or final, please advise, Coolidge." (field name said again in case you missed it the first time)
A good idea, which gives people chance to speak up. Don't you think?
What's wrong with saying something like that if in doubt?! ie, "G-OE holding short 29, anyone on base or final please advise." Then, if you don't hear ought, cross the hold (call lining up/taking off etc) and do one! At least this way, you're covering your ass.
Just my tuppence worth, and if I'm ever back in the UK, you'll hear me using that phraseology on A/G if there's any doubt.
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.......... sounds good but what if one or more aircraft are non radio, which is sometimes the case at Sherburn.
Although I'm sure you are not suggesting a substitute for keeping your eyes peeled!
Although I'm sure you are not suggesting a substitute for keeping your eyes peeled!
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.......... sounds good but what if one or more aircraft are non radio, which is sometimes the case at Sherburn.
Although I'm sure you are not suggesting a substitute for keeping your eyes peeled!
Although I'm sure you are not suggesting a substitute for keeping your eyes peeled!
