Thielert Diesel
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From: Belgium
Thielert Diesel
Am looking at the group purchase of a 2007 PA 28 (glass cockpit) with the Thielert 2.0 litre diesel. However the one nagging doubt is about the performance of the diesel both in terms of reliability and availability of parts. For example I rmember seeing something on the net about Thielerts rarely achieving full service life, issues with the fadec control and high pressure pump problems.
However the attraction is obvious - new technology, fuel costs etc.
Does anyone have any experience with these engines?
However the attraction is obvious - new technology, fuel costs etc.
Does anyone have any experience with these engines?
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From: Godzone
suggest you look past the fuel costs to the hourly running costs, which include overhaul/maintennance and engine TBO. the thierlet is reasonably reliable, fadec is great and will run well with a total electrical failure for about 30 minutes when the battery goes flat. the 300hr gearbox overhauls could get a little tiresome.
personally, i'd be going for the io360 CSU for longevity and bulletproofness.
personally, i'd be going for the io360 CSU for longevity and bulletproofness.
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From: Belgium
quite correct - obviously fixed costs remain the same and there is very little difference in maintenance costs over the existing lycoming that we run in the old aircraft due to a well negotiated agreement with our service provider.
I was'nt aware of the 300 hours gearbox check but will do some digging on that.
I was'nt aware of the 300 hours gearbox check but will do some digging on that.
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From: london
Having seen Thielert only recently emerge from receivership, I'd be nervous of buying an aircraft fitted with an engine produced by a company which may well not survive this recession. All the previous consumers of these engines had their warrantees voided overnight, which can't have amused them much.
A have also heard from a North London flying school which operates a PA28 with a converted a-class engine that the revised w&b turns the a/c into a 2 person machine.
A have also heard from a North London flying school which operates a PA28 with a converted a-class engine that the revised w&b turns the a/c into a 2 person machine.
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From: Amsterdam
I was'nt aware of the 300 hours gearbox check but will do some digging on that.
The Thielert bankruptcy voided this agreement and owners had to pay what Thielert called a "normal market price" for a gearbox change every 300 hours. This jacked up the price per hour for the engine alone with something like 20 euros.
I think Thielert has come to the conclusion that this scared off too many owners and have now substantially reduced the price of a gearbox change. But it will still cost you a fair bit of money.
I'm not too sure about the exact numbers, so don't quote me on that.
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From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
No numbers i have seen stack up for the diesel unless you are doing huge hours, and that is without recent problems. Seems to me that there are some very practical issues with this configuration, e.g. decreased range and payload, lack of Jet A1 at the type of fields you are likely to fly to and the maintenance points already mentioned. Diesel had its attractions because of cheaper Jet A1 and uncertainty over the future of Avgas. The first has gone because of the duty hike in Europe on diesel for private flying; the latter is questionable as the demise of avgas has been predicted for years yet it is still around. If you believe that a long term replacement for avgas will eventually appear then what is the case for diesel?
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From: EuroGA.org
Avtur is much easier to get in the far corners of the 3rd world - basically in quite a lot of places south of the Alps 
I think that's about it. That's actually a huge plus for touring, but only if no compromise exists elsewhere.
But not many Diamond diesel owners are flying very far nowadays; presumably out of concern for whether the engine(s) will make it, and to stretch out those 300hr periods.
I think that's about it. That's actually a huge plus for touring, but only if no compromise exists elsewhere.But not many Diamond diesel owners are flying very far nowadays; presumably out of concern for whether the engine(s) will make it, and to stretch out those 300hr periods.
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From: 75N 16E
Oh I don't know....I did 600 nm in a Twin Star (in 4 hrs I might add) - that is Bournemouth to Prague or Bournemouth to Nice and used 50 USG of Jet fuel...
My own view is this....If you want to buy a NEW machine for fast IFR touring, then don't bother buying anything buring Avgas now....wait until you can get a decent jet burner and rent / beg / borrow /steal in the meantime. If you are after a "cheap runaround" then get an Avgas burner....
For me it'd be the new Twin Star, but in a few years. Safety of two engines, convienience of Jet fuel, FADEC, safety and comfort of the cabin and relatively fast at about 190 Kts.
My own view is this....If you want to buy a NEW machine for fast IFR touring, then don't bother buying anything buring Avgas now....wait until you can get a decent jet burner and rent / beg / borrow /steal in the meantime. If you are after a "cheap runaround" then get an Avgas burner....
For me it'd be the new Twin Star, but in a few years. Safety of two engines, convienience of Jet fuel, FADEC, safety and comfort of the cabin and relatively fast at about 190 Kts.
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From: Gt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
If you want to buy a NEW machine for fast IFR touring, then don't bother buying anything buring Avgas now....wait until you can get a decent jet burner and rent / beg / borrow /steal in the meantime.
Why not avgas? What is the disadvantage of a TB20, Cirrus Mooney? What is the fast long distance IFR pilot waiting for? Is there any evidence that diesel will take off in the next 5 to 10 years? Sure, if you plan to fly in Africa or the third world then lack of avgas is a problem, but most tourers they will not leave the western world! You might as well go for a mogas burner and travel very light, though availability of fuel is still a problem. At least you can run your rotax on avgas if necessary.
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From: ZRH
There seems to be other problems coming up for Diesel users.
http://thenog.org/docs/Exxonrefusesfuelda42.pdf
It appears that some powers that be seem to think Jet A1 is not for Diesel engines and refuse to supply Jet Fuel to Diesel equipped airplanes. Not sure how much influence Exxon has in Europe but in today's day and age actions by fuel suppliers like the ones above may well bring the Diesel vision to an abrupt and screeching halt. What if certification authorities jump on this bandwagon and demand true diesel fuel only? In this case, diesel equipped airplanes would become static displays faster than we can appreciate.
Rumours out West claim that Exxon seems to do this as a CYA action, others say it is an effort to get rid of unwanted competition and/or to keep (expensive) fuels en vogue, can't say, but I certainly do not like the idea of fuel suppliers refusing to supply any type of aircraft engine.
Best regards
AN2 Driver
http://thenog.org/docs/Exxonrefusesfuelda42.pdf
It appears that some powers that be seem to think Jet A1 is not for Diesel engines and refuse to supply Jet Fuel to Diesel equipped airplanes. Not sure how much influence Exxon has in Europe but in today's day and age actions by fuel suppliers like the ones above may well bring the Diesel vision to an abrupt and screeching halt. What if certification authorities jump on this bandwagon and demand true diesel fuel only? In this case, diesel equipped airplanes would become static displays faster than we can appreciate.
Rumours out West claim that Exxon seems to do this as a CYA action, others say it is an effort to get rid of unwanted competition and/or to keep (expensive) fuels en vogue, can't say, but I certainly do not like the idea of fuel suppliers refusing to supply any type of aircraft engine.
Best regards
AN2 Driver
I think all certified a/c should get rid of their diesels. Anyone got a cheap diesel for sale for my LAA aircaft?
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From: Amsterdam
It appears that some powers that be seem to think Jet A1 is not for Diesel engines and refuse to supply Jet Fuel to Diesel equipped airplanes.
Be careful to separate "Diesel - the technology of self-ignition in piston engines" and "Diesel - the fuel that's mixed to certain specifications and goes into your tank" in the discussion. The Thielert engine is an engine that uses Alfred Diesels principle of self-ignition to ignite the fuel that goes into it. It's been adapted from an engine that would take automotive diesel fuel exclusively, into an engine that's very happy with Jet-A fuel.
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From: 75N 16E
Why aren't there more small tubines available? in the USA you can get C172 turboprop conversions...Why aren't manufacturers starting to move towards small turbines for small aircraft?
Much more reliable, prices will drop, old technology......I can't see any reason why not - other than the overage PPL couldn't fly one of course!
Much more reliable, prices will drop, old technology......I can't see any reason why not - other than the overage PPL couldn't fly one of course!
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From: Right here
Why aren't there more small tubines available? in the USA you can get C172 turboprop conversions...Why aren't manufacturers starting to move towards small turbines for small aircraft?
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From: EuroGA.org
Small turbines are around 1.5x less efficient than pistons. There is as yet no indication anybody has cracked this problem.
They also cost around 5x more to buy to start with.
It's a good technical solution for a narrow market.
They also cost around 5x more to buy to start with.
It's a good technical solution for a narrow market.
Fleet Manager
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From: Ontario, Canada
In addition to the foregoing correct reasons,
To be permitted STC'd, or TC'd installation, an engine and it's combined propeller, must also be type certified (very expensive and time consuming). I am not aware of any TC'd turboprop smaller than the Allison at 300+ hp - far too much for small GA aircraft, in every way.
Pilot DAR
To be permitted STC'd, or TC'd installation, an engine and it's combined propeller, must also be type certified (very expensive and time consuming). I am not aware of any TC'd turboprop smaller than the Allison at 300+ hp - far too much for small GA aircraft, in every way.
Pilot DAR
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From: Europe
What about AustroEngine then ?
The recent financial problems at Thielert are not sounding very encouraging. Now that Diamond received certification for the new AustroEngine (for DA42 only for the time being), I would not be surprised if this engine would become available to a broader market.
Regarding operations, the Thielert engines are fine. I flew with in a DA40 and in a retrofitted C172. You have to relax and trust the FADEC. It does not manages the prop as we learn to, and it can be a bit surprising. That being said, single-lever operation is cool and makes procedures easier, and engine start are a non-event.
Regarding operations, the Thielert engines are fine. I flew with in a DA40 and in a retrofitted C172. You have to relax and trust the FADEC. It does not manages the prop as we learn to, and it can be a bit surprising. That being said, single-lever operation is cool and makes procedures easier, and engine start are a non-event.
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From: UK
The Thielert 4 stroke 4 cylinder engine or any 4 stroke engine deisel is not a good design to drive a prop. To many harmonics and large power pulses.
That is why it needs a gear box and harmonic damper. Does not follow the KIS concept, Keep It Simple.
The SMA needs a very tough prop that can take it.
Externaly blown 2 strokes are far better, I think you need to wait for the Delta Hawk V4 160/180/200 hp or the Wilksch 4 cl 160hp no FADEC in either.
Far better design concepts.
The 8 cyl twin row 2 stroke radial Zoche would be the best and smoothest but it seems to be a scam to get EU grants and will never see the light of day, been in development for at least 20 years.
I would steer clear of Diamonds own, to heavy and all the problems of the Thielert.
I agree about Lycoming IO360 or O360, lots of valve and cam problems due
to poor oil flow to the valve gear and oil draining off the cam and rusting, if not flown regulary. 40 hours a month, so Lycoming say.
That is why it needs a gear box and harmonic damper. Does not follow the KIS concept, Keep It Simple.
The SMA needs a very tough prop that can take it.
Externaly blown 2 strokes are far better, I think you need to wait for the Delta Hawk V4 160/180/200 hp or the Wilksch 4 cl 160hp no FADEC in either.
Far better design concepts.
The 8 cyl twin row 2 stroke radial Zoche would be the best and smoothest but it seems to be a scam to get EU grants and will never see the light of day, been in development for at least 20 years.
I would steer clear of Diamonds own, to heavy and all the problems of the Thielert.
I agree about Lycoming IO360 or O360, lots of valve and cam problems due
to poor oil flow to the valve gear and oil draining off the cam and rusting, if not flown regulary. 40 hours a month, so Lycoming say.