What a waste of a young life

[George Zipper]

I.m.s.a.f.e

Remember what this stands for?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I think, and hope, most PPL holders would prefer a system where a pilot is grounded after investigation, not pending investigation.>>

I disagree. As an Air Traffic Controller I was used to being suspended pending investigation into any incident. If someone is potentially incapable why should they be allowed to continue with their activities?

[IO540]

I disagree. As an Air Traffic Controller I was used to being suspended pending investigation into any incident. If someone is potentially incapable why should they be allowed to continue with their activities?

A few possible reasons:

- the ATCO is being paid to do that job, and a suspension on full pay is the only way to investigate the case without him suing the employer for a raft of stuff e.g. constructive dismissal, not to mention him having to turn up for work and do his job under pressure/worry while he is being investigated

- a dodgy ATCO could wreak a lot more havoc than a dodgy pilot ?

- the ATC regulators will have a lot more investigative resources, post-incident, than the CAA is ever going to throw at a case which - at the time - consists probably only of allegations

[Say again s l o w l y]

In most work situations if there is an investigation, then people are suspended pending the outcome.

I wouldn't want to see people losing their licence just because they've made a mistake or because someone has made an allegation, however, the investigation process needs to be tightened up. This chap shouldn't have been flying and their was evidence to support action being taken against him.

The question needs to be why this was. We don't need more regulation, we just need the current rules enforced better.

[bjornhall]

I wouldn't want to see people losing their licence just because they've made a mistake or because someone has made an allegation

Exactly, and that is precisely what happens when people can be grounded pending investigation.

If someone is potentially incapable why should they be allowed to continue with their activities?

And what constitutes "potentially incapable"? How can you tell who is "potentially incapable"?

The solution is to investigate more quickly.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've spent many years honing my "muppet radar" and it is fairly accurate. Most experienced FI's have developed this sense too!

However, my thoughts on someone wouldn't count in a court, but there are enough dodgy people out there to warrant a bit more of a proactive approach from the men in the ministry.

[Nibbler]

This is why IMHO pilots should be required to take an LST to revalidate their SEP just as with the multi. Those who have issues can be failed or receive a partial and are left with the choice of taking further training or not flying. The sign off by experience leaves the door wide open for poor pilots to continue to be a danger to themselves and others.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Nibbler. Good choice of name. We do not need more regulation. We need, even less, a "knee jerk" reaction from the authorities on the strength of a certificated retard.

[englishal]

This is why IMHO pilots should be required to take an LST to revalidate their SEP just as with the multi.

IMHO an FAA style BFR is better - which is signed off by the instructor as a logbook endorsement, which certifies that they have completed the BFR successfully. That way, should anything crop up in the near future, the FI takes the rap from the FAA. It means examiners are not needed, competent pilots are not unduly hindered, and no hassle. If the date is passed, fine you can't fly until it is done. Forget any hours requirements too...

[Nibbler]

Thanks GBZ.

I entirely agree, a knee jerk reaction to a single or otherwise rare event is unwise and regulation introduced like this often fails to address the problem as was intended. Yet there remains in my mind, from personal experience, the problem of pilots who would very likely fail a skills test. The question has to be are we happy to hope, or should something positive be done to benefit overall safety?

As you might expect I agree with englishal.

[PompeyPaul]

This still seems odd

Taking drugs \ drinking and flying is only ever going to end with one result. Flying after class A drugs is suicide. I find it very hard to believe he knowingly dropped an E and then got into an aircraft with a passenger. Either he was spiked, or he took the tablet thinking it was something else. If he did knowingly take ecstacy and then got into an aircraft he commited suicide. The only other thing I wonder was if the MDMA was in the passenger's body and samples got contaminated ? We'll never know what truly happened that fateful day.

[scooter boy]

M..e..a..t..h..e..a..d..

E is not safe.
E kills people.
Brian Harvey of the pop group E17 (the one that managed to reverse over his own head in a mercedes whilst in a non-lucid state and whose girlfriend totally destroyed her nasal septum with cocaine) once tellingly informed the press that "E was fine" - don't see much of him these days.
E is an incredibly irresponsible drug to take prior to taking responsibility for taking somebody else's child flying in a light aircraft.

I was involved in an aviation air-to-air formation photoshoot today for one of the flying mags.
The camera ship carried the snapper and I had the photographer's 12 year old kid sitting next to me as I flew the other aircraft - a major responsibility AFAIAC - I was extremely flattered that he trusted me enough to undertake this role of keeping his kid safe.
I think the photographer knew I am a born coward and wouldn't get too close.
Still... I don't know whom I would trust to take my little girl up - I fly even more carefully when she or her mother is in the aircraft.

Call me judgemental but...you just have to look at this guy to know he was trouble...

SB

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<And what constitutes "potentially incapable"? How can you tell who is "potentially incapable"?>>

In the context of this thread, if a pilot visited me in ATC to "check out", or whatever it's called now, and was obviously the worse for drink/ drugs I would take every action I could to prevent him from flying.

I had close dealings with light aircraft pilots early in my career and whilst the vast majority are safe and behave very professionally, there are those who shouldn't be allowed on an aerodrome, let alone on an aeroplane.

[juliet india mike]

Alcohol is not safe
Alcohol kills people

If this idiot pilot had been over the drink-drive limit he would still be as dead and his poor passenger too.

The Ecstacy element of his foolishness is taking too much attention away from the fitness to fly issue. It then runs the risk of concealing the broader issues implicit in IMSAFE, something that some pilots only realise they have breached in retrospect after a close call or worse.

Self-awareness of one's present condition is difficullt to maintain. (If someone has recently take drugs they are more likely to be aware of their impairment than someone worried about work or relationships).

[Redbird72]

Parents of the kid would surely have known their brother was taking drugs. If indeed I had kids and was put in this situation I'd think twice about who I was allowing my child to go up with...

To my recollection (from a report at the time of the accident I think), the child had been forbidden by his parents to fly with the pilot in question.