21 Day Rules...
The Original Foot
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21 Day Rules...
...I would appreciate some thoughts, general and specific. I have a share in a small aircraft at a small airfield. The club rules are for those people who have not flown for 21 days (less than 50hrs P1 28 days more than 50hrs P1), require a checkout. I do my training and other flying at another field. Last year, it was a bit of a pain keeping this up, with availability and weather I struggled, and ended up doing lots of check flights. With the best will in the world, I did more of those, than I did my own flying.
This year has popped up, and for one reason and another, I have done a few hours with an instructor at my normal field. So the question is, do I have to go and schedule a further check out at the new field, or do you think I am current... I seek views.
The thing I should probably do, is seek clarification, but I wonder if this is one of the times where clarity possibly isn't the best thing to do...
This year has popped up, and for one reason and another, I have done a few hours with an instructor at my normal field. So the question is, do I have to go and schedule a further check out at the new field, or do you think I am current... I seek views.
The thing I should probably do, is seek clarification, but I wonder if this is one of the times where clarity possibly isn't the best thing to do...
I see your point but if the club rules state you must do a check ride if you have not flown for 21 days and you are a member of the club, well QED.
However, I'm not sure if you are saying that they won't count hours you do elsewhere? Unless of course, your share is in a complex type.
If that is so, then maybe a bit over the top if you can prove you are logging time elsewhere.
Finally, why do you have a share in an aircraft you don't use..or have I completely misunderstood?
However, I'm not sure if you are saying that they won't count hours you do elsewhere? Unless of course, your share is in a complex type.
If that is so, then maybe a bit over the top if you can prove you are logging time elsewhere.
Finally, why do you have a share in an aircraft you don't use..or have I completely misunderstood?
The Original Foot
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Well you have and you haven't....
So I haven't been clear. I have a share (it's a great share) in a small C150. Shared with 12. It's a greatly little piece of kit and it is from a relatively small grass airfield. I bought it, because it's cheap as chips flying. Now the relatively small grass airfield, is well a relatively small grass airfield, and I am use to a big concrete airfield. Last year, I didn't have a great year of flying, with weather, work, motivation, and to a lesser extent availability.
So I ended up doing about 3 check out flights and not a huge amount of meaningful flights of my own (some, but not many).
I have now just completely 3 hours with an instructor at a different field, (big and concrete; not waterlogged; and they were available at short notice...) I would quite like to jump back in the C150 at the relatively small grass airfield, but I don't feel particularly motivated to sit in with an instructor for another 1.5 hours, so I wondered what people thought of the interpretation of the rules could be... I am just interested in views, I shall most likely go up and speak to the clubs CFI, and I suspect I know what the answer will be - 21 day flying from the club... But that in itself has some interesting implications...
Hope this is clearer, possibly not...
So I haven't been clear. I have a share (it's a great share) in a small C150. Shared with 12. It's a greatly little piece of kit and it is from a relatively small grass airfield. I bought it, because it's cheap as chips flying. Now the relatively small grass airfield, is well a relatively small grass airfield, and I am use to a big concrete airfield. Last year, I didn't have a great year of flying, with weather, work, motivation, and to a lesser extent availability.
So I ended up doing about 3 check out flights and not a huge amount of meaningful flights of my own (some, but not many).
I have now just completely 3 hours with an instructor at a different field, (big and concrete; not waterlogged; and they were available at short notice...) I would quite like to jump back in the C150 at the relatively small grass airfield, but I don't feel particularly motivated to sit in with an instructor for another 1.5 hours, so I wondered what people thought of the interpretation of the rules could be... I am just interested in views, I shall most likely go up and speak to the clubs CFI, and I suspect I know what the answer will be - 21 day flying from the club... But that in itself has some interesting implications...
Hope this is clearer, possibly not...
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A club can make its own rules, you don't like them you don't have to join.
If it's a "you must have flown within 21 days" rule then, unless you post the full wording, we can only assume that it means what you say. So flying somewhere else within the 21 days counts. I wouldn't be surprised if the club wanted some evidence of this, eg an invoice or an instructor's signature in your log book ... but you've read and signed the club's flying order book, haven't you, so you know all this already, so why are you asking us?
If it's a "you must have flown within 21 days" rule then, unless you post the full wording, we can only assume that it means what you say. So flying somewhere else within the 21 days counts. I wouldn't be surprised if the club wanted some evidence of this, eg an invoice or an instructor's signature in your log book ... but you've read and signed the club's flying order book, haven't you, so you know all this already, so why are you asking us?
The Original Foot
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The check out flights are very rhobust; 3 circuits; PFL; Steep Turns; Stalls in a variety of configurations...
The rules say if you haven't flown within 21 days....
must be checked out with an instructor...
So I asked a couple of experienced members:
1 said - flying currency if you have flown/been checked out anywhere, that's fine.
1 said - airfield currency.
Reading between the lines, I am sure they want it to say 21 days flying at the airfield; checkout with a local instructor.
I take your point Gertrude, and one of the things I am considering is staying at the club/with the share. I was just wondering on other peoples views, as they often provide interesting insight.
The rules say if you haven't flown within 21 days....
must be checked out with an instructor...
So I asked a couple of experienced members:
1 said - flying currency if you have flown/been checked out anywhere, that's fine.
1 said - airfield currency.
Reading between the lines, I am sure they want it to say 21 days flying at the airfield; checkout with a local instructor.
I take your point Gertrude, and one of the things I am considering is staying at the club/with the share. I was just wondering on other peoples views, as they often provide interesting insight.
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Bigfoot, hello.
I might be wrong about this, but if you're talking about the grass strip I think you are, then the 21 day rule might have something to do with currency at the field in question, rather than in general, as I suspect the instructors and the club got tired of picking bits of plane out various hedges.
This is supposition on my part, but would be in keeping with the (understandably safety conscious) thought processes of those at the club.
Regards
JR
I might be wrong about this, but if you're talking about the grass strip I think you are, then the 21 day rule might have something to do with currency at the field in question, rather than in general, as I suspect the instructors and the club got tired of picking bits of plane out various hedges.
This is supposition on my part, but would be in keeping with the (understandably safety conscious) thought processes of those at the club.
Regards
JR
If you have a share in an aircraft, the group rules are what count. The club rules apply to aircraft rented from the club.
Unless the club own the airfield, and it is an airfield rule, but I've never been asked about currency when PPRing to any airfield.
I am a group member, and last year rented for 12 hours as a member of a club. The club rules did not apply to the group plane.
I had a quick check out from an instructor if I hadn't flown the club Pa28 or Pa38 for 5 weeks, but flew the group taildragger back from maintanance without a checkout, although I hadn't flown its type for 4 months.
Unless the club own the airfield, and it is an airfield rule, but I've never been asked about currency when PPRing to any airfield.
I am a group member, and last year rented for 12 hours as a member of a club. The club rules did not apply to the group plane.
I had a quick check out from an instructor if I hadn't flown the club Pa28 or Pa38 for 5 weeks, but flew the group taildragger back from maintanance without a checkout, although I hadn't flown its type for 4 months.
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In this case, the club do indeed own the airfield!
JR
(well, they lease the actual grass, but you get what I mean!)
JR
(well, they lease the actual grass, but you get what I mean!)
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Bigfoot,
As you own a share in the aircraft, why not bring this up at the first upcoming shareholders meeting?
Bringing it up here on PPRuNe doesn't really help since there is no legal requirement for a regular checkout anywhere in the ANO. The only legal requirements are the 90-day rule for carrying passengers and the two-yearly revalidation (by experience or by test). That 21-day or 28-day currency rule is strictly local to your group and it is unlikely that any of us here know the exact wording of your local group rules so we cannot help you squeeze the most leeway out of them.
And bringing it up here might actually be counterproductive, in case other group shareholders are on this forum as well.
As you own a share in the aircraft, why not bring this up at the first upcoming shareholders meeting?
Bringing it up here on PPRuNe doesn't really help since there is no legal requirement for a regular checkout anywhere in the ANO. The only legal requirements are the 90-day rule for carrying passengers and the two-yearly revalidation (by experience or by test). That 21-day or 28-day currency rule is strictly local to your group and it is unlikely that any of us here know the exact wording of your local group rules so we cannot help you squeeze the most leeway out of them.
And bringing it up here might actually be counterproductive, in case other group shareholders are on this forum as well.
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Seems to me like you want to have your cake and eat it!
You say you bought this share because it was 'cheap as chips flying' but you haven't felt like flying there. You also mention that you are more used to (=prefer?) bigger airfields and hard runways. All the more reason then to ensure that you are checked as proficient to operate in and out of what you describe as "a relatively small grass airfield". I would have thought your own sense of self preservation would make you want to ensure you are confident that you will not end up hanging upside down from your straps in the hedge, especially as your inference is that you have less than 50 hours P1 or you would be looking at a 28-day interval.
If it's cheap as chips, then what's putting you off doing the necessary checks if you are not flying within 21 days? You knew the rules when you bought the share. Either comply with them or get rid of the share!
You say you bought this share because it was 'cheap as chips flying' but you haven't felt like flying there. You also mention that you are more used to (=prefer?) bigger airfields and hard runways. All the more reason then to ensure that you are checked as proficient to operate in and out of what you describe as "a relatively small grass airfield". I would have thought your own sense of self preservation would make you want to ensure you are confident that you will not end up hanging upside down from your straps in the hedge, especially as your inference is that you have less than 50 hours P1 or you would be looking at a 28-day interval.
If it's cheap as chips, then what's putting you off doing the necessary checks if you are not flying within 21 days? You knew the rules when you bought the share. Either comply with them or get rid of the share!
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OK eye in the sky, granted that they might want him to do a few stop and go's to practice and demonstrate continued competence in soft/short field operations, but that should be about 20 minutes, what about the rest of the full check they put him through ?
If its his own (partially) aircraft and not an ANO requirement, just an airfield specific requirement then focus on the reason and check that. Anything more is verging on "golf club mentality" IMO.
If its his own (partially) aircraft and not an ANO requirement, just an airfield specific requirement then focus on the reason and check that. Anything more is verging on "golf club mentality" IMO.
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I often hire from a small flying club who's rules require a check ride if you haven't flown for 30 days.
If I'm current, all that is required is 2 circuits, which could be less than 0.5 hours. No need for a full 1.5 hours, PFL, stalls etc. If you're familiar with the aircraft, it's fine.
A check ride should be more about confidence in landing, and the particular handling charactaristics of that aircraft.
If I'm current, all that is required is 2 circuits, which could be less than 0.5 hours. No need for a full 1.5 hours, PFL, stalls etc. If you're familiar with the aircraft, it's fine.
A check ride should be more about confidence in landing, and the particular handling charactaristics of that aircraft.
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Still not clear here if the share is part of the club or not
If the share is part of the club then club rules apply and if flying elswhere counts should be cleared up by talking to the CFI - if he does not know then there is something wrong! If the share is not part of the club then it is down to group rules and your own happiness at how current you are.
I would certainly agree that a checkout for 21 day currency should just need a couple of circuits unless your currency has gone well beyond this
If the share is part of the club then club rules apply and if flying elswhere counts should be cleared up by talking to the CFI - if he does not know then there is something wrong! If the share is not part of the club then it is down to group rules and your own happiness at how current you are.
I would certainly agree that a checkout for 21 day currency should just need a couple of circuits unless your currency has gone well beyond this
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Air Accidents Investigation: Cessna 152, G-BRNK
This report seems to reflect the special circumstances of the field which may well be the reason why a more rigorous check-out is required.
This report seems to reflect the special circumstances of the field which may well be the reason why a more rigorous check-out is required.
I have in the past noticed that the people who could benefit the most from a check ride are often the selfsame people who are least willing to do one........
So, the difference between the "usual" acres of concrete and the inhabitual shortish grass strip may well justify a more severe regime. In any case, presumably they put these rules to you before you wrote your cheque?
So, the difference between the "usual" acres of concrete and the inhabitual shortish grass strip may well justify a more severe regime. In any case, presumably they put these rules to you before you wrote your cheque?