Aerial Photography

[BackPacker]

With a few defined exceptions (paras 158-163) you can't make money - directly or indirectly - from flying, nor can anyone else in the plane you pilot.

(My emphasis). In fact, my understanding is that noone can make money from your flight, even if they did NOT fly with you. So if you give the pictures to the company and the company then uses these to make money (or, at the very least, save the expenses of having them professionally done) it's already illegal. And that's independent of the question of whether you get reimbursed for the flight expenses or not.

As a side issue: Come to think of this, doesn't make this it illegal for the plane rental company to make money off you? And how about the fuel supplier?

[IO540]

doesn't make this it illegal for the plane rental company to make money off you?

That one is covered by some other obscure bit of the UK ANO

But yes that is a good point.

It is also relevant to renting out an N-reg, which on the face of it should breach Article 140 but it doesn't - and I have checked this with the top man at the DfT.

[bigfoot01]

Anybody every prosecuted for any of these things ever?

[IO540]

Maybe not aerial photos but certainly what was deemed illegal paid ops on a PPL.

Some recent CAA prosecutions are here.

I believe they have taken out most, if not all, of those that failed.

I like the "Aircraft took off with concrete block still attached" one

This kind of stuff makes interesting reading - it puts to bed so much pilot forum gossip about getting done for this and that. The FAA (in the USA) is far more pro-active.

But as I said, it is the insurance angle which might turn out to be the gotcha.

[bigfoot01]

Great post, I didn't know they were there, but in summary the answer is no, nobody has been prosecuted for taking a snap for your company and then using it, maybe even making a few bob, in the past 3 years (or similar!). Pragmatically, I think the original question is on pretty safe ground, despite the fascinating technicalities of LASORS. Hey ho....

[bookworm]

(My emphasis). In fact, my understanding is that noone can make money from your flight, even if they did NOT fly with you. So if you give the pictures to the company and the company then uses these to make money (or, at the very least, save the expenses of having them professionally done) it's already illegal.

Your understanding is wrong then, at least so far as UK law is concerned. The condition that makes a flight aerial work or public transport is much narrower than you suggest, and revolves around whether valuable consideration is given or promised for the flight or the purpose of the flight. There are many ways to "make money" in a way that does not fall under that condition.

The "taking the job away from professionals" argument is also a frequently quoted distraction. If you fly your private aircraft from A to B for pleasure, you're often depriving an airline or air taxi company of the income they would get from carrying you on the same route. That doesn't make your flight aerial work.

Flying has enough regulatory encumbrance, without anyone inventing imaginary prohibitions.

[Grob Driver]

Thank you all for the posts so far.

I tried talking with the CAA on Friday to get a definitive answer but they were about as much help as..........

In the end they suggested I e-mail my question to them.

Just to give a bit more background... I work for a government agency, and they photo would be used to help in a potential prosecution. So, there would be no 'financial' gain for either me or my employer.

Regards
GD
PS - I'm not a planner, and it's not planning related! - Just wanted to get that in before a torrent of abuse heads my way (Would be justified abuse too... If I were a planner!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[BelArgUSA]

OK, I think you guys in UK go a little bit overboard with your law abiding attitudes.
Yes, of course. Taking a picture with a PPL, on a non-commercially licenced airplane...
Bla bla bla...
xxx
Consider this. You are all pilots, I visit England.
I am in pilot uniform, at LHR T-3, you are passing by with your car.
Raining like hell. You stop, and ask if I would like a ride... you are a buddy pilot.
We pilots help each other. Right...?
Yes Sir, I need to go to LGW... I need a taxi...
You offer me the ride, as you were driving to Crawley anyway.
Quick on the M-25... 35 minutes later, you drop me at LGW.
Hey, thanks, mate... and I give you 20 quids for your kindness.
xxx
Well, Sir, you are a dirty b*stard. You are not operating a licenced taxi.
You do not have a commercial driver's licence either.
You are not covered by your insurance to offer transportation.
You fail to report your earnings to internal revenue...
Should I report you, or thank you for the assistance you gave me...?
xxx
Same thing... you take a plane, and make a picture.
Nothing "commercial" about it. Likely you will never make pictures in flight again.
You are really not operating aerial work business. It is just incidental.
Your employer appreciates, and reimburses you for part of your flight.
As a thank you for your effort.
xxx
That is my point. And that is my opinion, law, or no law considered.
Now continue to discuss nonsense, and sit on the rules.
xxx
I do not know about "your" wonderful CAA...
In the USA, where I flew part of my career, it would never be considered a commercial flight.
Do you know i.e. than with FAA rules, a PPL (airplane salesman) can legally fly a potential customer.
It does not require a CPL, even though part of your salary will be a sales commission.
Flying with a customer is incidental to your salesman job. Nothing "commercial".
xxx
I had a friend in California, real estate salesman. Million dollar estates.
He was a PPL. The plane was rented from a flight school.
He often took pictures from the plane, of the mansions he was selling.
xxx
So, for heaven's sake, go and take that picture, and do not say a word.

Happy contrails

[Halfbaked_Boy]

I agree with BelArgUSA,

Come on buddy, you're in an aeroplane, not in school - do whatever you want, just be safe and don't get caught

p.s. this is completely legal.

[172driver]

BelArgUSA:

[Pace]

BelArgUsa

Very well put we are so up our Ar**s in the UK. Interesting snippet the average UK resident breaks the law 22 times a day without even realising it.

If it breathes or moves regulate on it.

No wonder all our emplyement is in government positions and I repeat
Sir Douglas Bader " The law is for fools to obey and wise men to question".
A heck of a lot need an awful lot of questioning.

Pace

[Jumbo Driver]

Originally Posted by Pace

... and I repeat
Sir Douglas Bader " The law is for fools to obey and wise men to question".
...

... I believe the Bader quote was actually "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men" ...


JD

[percy prentice]

Hey chaps, I think that you will find that we all probably break the law over here every time we get out of the door in the morning & some probably in their own homes before they even get out through the door

There are hardly any inforcements going on unto something goes wrong. When it does every single rule book is then looked at. That is when the rule book is used to beat the offender over the head.
We can all pooh pooh these laws & say that we have got away with it but when there is a problem you can guarrantee that some official will nail you on something.
I conduct my business & try and adhere to best practices but what I do know is when something goes wrong a little enforcer will be there to nail someone.

I think that you are safe as I am not aware of anyone making money out of taking aerial pictures of buildings, it becomes profitable if there is a well known celeb being caught in the act & if a goat is involved..... now that would pay for your fines & a damn good holiday ...well worth it eh?

[TheGorrilla]

it becomes profitable if there is a well known celeb being caught in the act & if a goat is involved..... now that would pay for your fines & a damn good holiday ...well worth it eh?

Ah that good old well know, rolling goat shag!

Are you sure you don't work for the paparazzi Percy?