1st IMC lesson
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
SayagainSlowly
You obviously are a good instructor. In an ideal world what you say should be true.
When I got my PPL and IMCR years ago it was a boom time. The flying school was very busy it was a job to book an hour slot with one of the instructors on a sunday morning and often you had different instructors on each lesson.
Briefings were short and often a case of sort it in the air which was not the right invironment for sorting the complexities of instrument flying.
In my early commercial flying I used the sim to fly my next days trip with Sids and stars and instrument approaches, With MSFS at the level I had it I could even put in the forecast weather and winds. Both trips simulated and real were uncannely simular.
Pace
You obviously are a good instructor. In an ideal world what you say should be true.
When I got my PPL and IMCR years ago it was a boom time. The flying school was very busy it was a job to book an hour slot with one of the instructors on a sunday morning and often you had different instructors on each lesson.
Briefings were short and often a case of sort it in the air which was not the right invironment for sorting the complexities of instrument flying.
In my early commercial flying I used the sim to fly my next days trip with Sids and stars and instrument approaches, With MSFS at the level I had it I could even put in the forecast weather and winds. Both trips simulated and real were uncannely simular.
Pace
Joined: Feb 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: one dot low as usual
Another vote for IO540's suggestion. I always use MS flight sim to practise my holds/approaches prior to the SEP IR renewal as I can plug the actual winds in and get a better idea of the drift/timings prior to going into the air and doing it.
I've got plenty of actual IMC hours under my belt but the chair flying/flight sim tip is invaluable to avoid turning the wrong way, forgetting to level off or 100 other mistakes you can make when the pressure is on in real conditions.
As for flying around SEP in a very low cloudbase or vis, my personal limits wouldn't be comfortable factoring in the "what if's".
I've got plenty of actual IMC hours under my belt but the chair flying/flight sim tip is invaluable to avoid turning the wrong way, forgetting to level off or 100 other mistakes you can make when the pressure is on in real conditions.
As for flying around SEP in a very low cloudbase or vis, my personal limits wouldn't be comfortable factoring in the "what if's".
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: U.K.
Using a PC based flight sim to keep up your skills is one thing, using it on your own to try and learn the skills quite another.
Pace, I hear about schools like that and I understand why so many people who have sat next to me in an aircraft have been so poor. It isn't their fault, but it is they who pay the price for shoddy training.
Smart youngsters can often get away with dodgy training, the general PPL population can't and this one of the reasons that proper GA flying is relatively rare in the UK. People simply don't have the skills or real confidence to go off and challenge themselves and that makes me very sad.
Pace, I hear about schools like that and I understand why so many people who have sat next to me in an aircraft have been so poor. It isn't their fault, but it is they who pay the price for shoddy training.
Smart youngsters can often get away with dodgy training, the general PPL population can't and this one of the reasons that proper GA flying is relatively rare in the UK. People simply don't have the skills or real confidence to go off and challenge themselves and that makes me very sad.
Joined: May 2004
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From: Neither Here Nor There
Originally Posted by Keygrip
You shouldn't need a "hood" on lesson 1 - and certainly no IMC conditions.
Can't agree enough with the positives of procedural training on MSFS or a FNPT but be prepared to be bumped about when in the real muck. Learn to fly the aircraft in IMC before going to the FS.
I always introduce the student to Spatial Disorientation on Day 1. Not trying to teach my grannie to suck eggs but for the sake of those who don't know - Take control (FI), close eyes (student) and (FI) place a/c into a gentle, banked, clmbing turn, slowly increasing the bank and climb angles over approx 1 minute. Keep eyes closed (student) and tell me what the aircraft is doing - (FI) set a/c straight and level and the student will invariably tell you the aircraft is diving to the right/left. FI tell Student to look at instruments - hey?? - now look outside - what the?? Now, if you were in IMC and you'd believed the 'seat of your pants' you'd have recovered from a descending turn; reduce power, roll wings level, pull out of dive which would have actually placed you into a climbing turn with reduced power - 1 x stall in cloud which is not a good position to be in. Try it - you will learn to trust the instruments.
I've only had bad SD for real twice but on both occasions if I hadn't trusted the instruments I could have wound up in serious trouble.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,982
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From: In the boot of my car!
Is there any hope that a IMC rating can eventually be converted to a new EASA light IFR rating automatically when the IMC is not valid anymore?
Should that happen then its more likely that an IMCR will count towards some of the hours and training for an EASA light IR.
As for converting automatically to an EASA light IR no chance!
Pace
Joined: May 2004
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From: Neither Here Nor There
By all accounts (and I stand to be corrected) the opposition to the IMCR (or something similar) in Europe does not come from the NAA's but from certain professional pilot's associations who do not want non-professional pilots in their exclusive 'professional' airspace - and they do have some clout.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
The story I have heard in a number of places is that the airline pilot unions have always objected to making the IR any easier because, in Europe, the IR has become the hallmark of the professional pilot. The IR has also often been described as the last opportunity to keep undesirable people out of the airlines. In turn, for a CPL/IR holder, the ATPL has largely become an hour building exercise.
In the USA, the IR is just something you can get at the same school at which you did your PPL, probably with the same instructor. Same for the CPL. Over there, the hallmark of a professional pilot is the ATPL which is an extra exam and an extra checkride to closer tolerances.
Also, Europe has lumped a chunk of the jet type rating into the IR ground school. American never did this - to get that you do the ATPL and the jet type rating, which is as it should be.
I don't think there is any great conspiracy (other than widespread uninformed prejudice) to keep private pilots out of the "commercials' airspace". The numbers of private pilots flying around Europe at the relevant "GA" levels - FL080-FL250 - is in any case miniscule and this is immediately evident to anybody who actually does it.
In the USA, the IR is just something you can get at the same school at which you did your PPL, probably with the same instructor. Same for the CPL. Over there, the hallmark of a professional pilot is the ATPL which is an extra exam and an extra checkride to closer tolerances.
Also, Europe has lumped a chunk of the jet type rating into the IR ground school. American never did this - to get that you do the ATPL and the jet type rating, which is as it should be.
I don't think there is any great conspiracy (other than widespread uninformed prejudice) to keep private pilots out of the "commercials' airspace". The numbers of private pilots flying around Europe at the relevant "GA" levels - FL080-FL250 - is in any case miniscule and this is immediately evident to anybody who actually does it.
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
By all accounts (and I stand to be corrected) the opposition to the IMCR (or something similar) in Europe does not come from the NAA's but from certain professional pilot's associations who do not want non-professional pilots in their exclusive 'professional' airspace - and they do have some clout.
I dont think it is so much that but freeing up airspace for less congestion and reducing ATC workload.
There is a problem in Europe with Slot Times and those slot problems are not dictated by enroute delays. Although Light GA would not use the busy upper levels larger faster aircraft do have to be descended through or climbed through those low levels in various areas.
Depart out of London in a Corporate jet and see the amount of radar headings you get and way off course headings you get before being allowed to climb into the upper levels or to your airways routing.
The fact that a light 4 seater single takes almost as much workload as a large aircraft and causes hell on the speed differential and climb rates and you can see why the reluctance to encourage more in certain areas. Ie they dont want to encourage what they see as half trained PPLs clogging up the system flying their hoard of PA28s in the airways. They dont like it now in certain areas. We are tolerated rather than welcomed.
Even in a Citation business jet you are always being questioned on climb rates or speeds.
take a light twin around London at peak times and you can feel the reluctance to have you there. You are often directed miles off track or shoved down to the bottom of CAS to such an extent that you wonder if its worth bothering filing IFR and far quicker to stay below and almost go direct.
One fear could be that rather than licence restrictions there could be aircraft performance restrictions on aircraft using CAS IE if it doesnt climb well enough or cruise fast enough it cant fly in CAS. I could only envisage that happening in certain areas?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 29th January 2009 at 10:36.
