Am I expecting too much?
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Am I expecting too much?
I am currently at a flight school in the USA doing my PPL having had no previous flying experience and am feeling very disappointed with my school. I have never expected to be spoon fed through my course but I have never had any ground training (except flight controls before first lesson) and my instructor is not approachable at all.
In fact i really hate my instructor, he treats me and everyone else who flies with him like ****, screams whenever you make a mistake saying "your the worst pilot ive ever seen" and completely destroys confidence.
When i joined the school i was just given the ppl confuser and told to go and study, there was no mentions of having to do certain exams before a certain time , there are not even any books or resources for the students to use if the confuser isnt enough. And then suddenly i am grounded because of an exam i havnt done.
Even though i have just 5 days left on my visa i have not flown for the last 10 days when i have just 9 hours and the check ride left to do because of this one exam. I told my instructor i wasnt able to do this exam because it requires the ICAO map, of which there is 1 to share between the whole school and someone else had it. Despite this my instructor continues to ground me telling me im just being lazy.
If i had been told at the beginning that i had to complete the exam before i can fly i would have studied it earlier and not the other ones but i think this is just typical of my unorganised school.
I feel like my instructor enjoys exercising his power over people and has been very unreasonable. I understand stopping people flying as a motivation to work hard but when i have such little time left (because i was given just a 6 week visa for PPL, is this normal?) it seems unfair.
When i leave next week i know i will have completed all of the exams and have just 5 hours left to do before my check ride, is it easy to get this done at a school in the UK when im back?
In fact i really hate my instructor, he treats me and everyone else who flies with him like ****, screams whenever you make a mistake saying "your the worst pilot ive ever seen" and completely destroys confidence.
When i joined the school i was just given the ppl confuser and told to go and study, there was no mentions of having to do certain exams before a certain time , there are not even any books or resources for the students to use if the confuser isnt enough. And then suddenly i am grounded because of an exam i havnt done.
Even though i have just 5 days left on my visa i have not flown for the last 10 days when i have just 9 hours and the check ride left to do because of this one exam. I told my instructor i wasnt able to do this exam because it requires the ICAO map, of which there is 1 to share between the whole school and someone else had it. Despite this my instructor continues to ground me telling me im just being lazy.
If i had been told at the beginning that i had to complete the exam before i can fly i would have studied it earlier and not the other ones but i think this is just typical of my unorganised school.
I feel like my instructor enjoys exercising his power over people and has been very unreasonable. I understand stopping people flying as a motivation to work hard but when i have such little time left (because i was given just a 6 week visa for PPL, is this normal?) it seems unfair.
When i leave next week i know i will have completed all of the exams and have just 5 hours left to do before my check ride, is it easy to get this done at a school in the UK when im back?
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No, everyone deserves to be treated with respect and courtesy if they are a paying customer.
Most people advise getting the exams done and out of the way in the UK before they embark on a full-time PPL abroad; however, it doesn't seem as if you were given this advice which you should have been.
Your best bet is to have a chat with the Chief Instructor and express your concerns. If you have to return to the UK without completing your training, you will need to ask for your training records and exam passes to be transferred to a school in the UK. This should be acceptable.
6 weeks with exams completed prior to flying is achievable but to study as well as fly is pushing it a little, especially if it's a busy school. It sounds as though the school hyped up the service offered and now can't provide.
A breakdown in the instructor/student relationship will not help you and you should find another instructor as soon as you can. It sounds as though it may take a few hours longer to build up your confidence again.
Cheers
Whirls
Most people advise getting the exams done and out of the way in the UK before they embark on a full-time PPL abroad; however, it doesn't seem as if you were given this advice which you should have been.
Your best bet is to have a chat with the Chief Instructor and express your concerns. If you have to return to the UK without completing your training, you will need to ask for your training records and exam passes to be transferred to a school in the UK. This should be acceptable.
6 weeks with exams completed prior to flying is achievable but to study as well as fly is pushing it a little, especially if it's a busy school. It sounds as though the school hyped up the service offered and now can't provide.
A breakdown in the instructor/student relationship will not help you and you should find another instructor as soon as you can. It sounds as though it may take a few hours longer to build up your confidence again.
Cheers
Whirls
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I agree, find another instructor!
You are a paying customer, and even though I assume there is an age difference, get him off his high horse.
Report him to the school owners and tell them he's a
ignorant ****, you are highly dissappointed and will not recommend this school to anyone.
Then tell them why you feel like that, and demand to fly with another instructor.
You're paying - you're the king.
---
I can only say, I've had the pleasure of having a very young instructor for my PPL. He was about my age, and does the instructing to build hrs (as all of them do I guess). I finished in min. time and we always had a blast flying together, it was pure joy.
I still regularly call him or see him, and we also plan a huge cross country for sometime this winter. Not as instructor / student, but as friends.
---
I wish you good luck. Let us know how it goes. It's never too late, and you'll soon find out that there's mostly great people in this industry. It's the black sheep that stand out.
You are a paying customer, and even though I assume there is an age difference, get him off his high horse.
Report him to the school owners and tell them he's a
ignorant ****, you are highly dissappointed and will not recommend this school to anyone.Then tell them why you feel like that, and demand to fly with another instructor.
You're paying - you're the king.
---
I can only say, I've had the pleasure of having a very young instructor for my PPL. He was about my age, and does the instructing to build hrs (as all of them do I guess). I finished in min. time and we always had a blast flying together, it was pure joy.
I still regularly call him or see him, and we also plan a huge cross country for sometime this winter. Not as instructor / student, but as friends.
---
I wish you good luck. Let us know how it goes. It's never too late, and you'll soon find out that there's mostly great people in this industry. It's the black sheep that stand out.
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Hi There
I am sorry to hear about your current difficulties with your FTO. It’s not an easy situation to be in. From reading your post it sounds that you feel quite intimidated by this instructor, which is perfectly understandable given the situation.
Firstly don't approach your instructor go straight over his head to management! In your experience in the school do you know of a senior member of staff or management with a bit of clout? Someone in seniority that this guy may have clashed with in the past then all the better. At least make sure that the person you complain to is a member of management and senior to your instructor.
You also need to protect your interests. Insist on a new instructor immediately. Demanding might not get you anywhere! The best approach is to be mature and respectful to the person(s) you complain to but it is important that you are assertive and very firm in what you say! Also if you feel confident enough ask the person you make the complaint to, to arrange to meet you and the instructor as there are some questions you may like to address to the instructor. Write the questions down! And ask him in front of the third more senior party. Inform him that the language he uses is far from acceptable and not professional in conduct? Ask why he feels that he has the right to speak to people in such a derogatory manner?
If that gets you no where then you may be left with no option but to return home without completing your training. But that is not the end of the world mate. I am not one to walkout on anything or to quit on anything. But one thing I have learned in life is that you should never allow anyone to speak to you in a manner that is degrading. If they do DO NOT allow it to reflect on you or your confidence!
If you have paid everything up front then try to resolve the situation. If you have not then the best thing to do may be to call it quits. But if that is your only option then make sure you complain about your instructor before leaving and put it all in writing to his superiors and the owner/proprietor/CEO of this instructors conduct. Inform them that this is how they are being represented by a member of their staff.
Finally what goes around comes around. Someone with attitude like his may find it difficult to make it as a professional pilot, who would want to be stuck in a flight deck with someone afflicted with a personality as bad as his? If he has been instructing for a long time maybe he should work on improving him manner, it might help him gain employment as a Pilot for an airline. Presuming that is him goal!
Edited to add this
After all is said and done and once you have made your complaints it would do your confidence to world of good to say whats on your mind directly to the instructor. Don't get drawn into a tit for tat argument with him but point out some of his personal home truths that he may not like to hear, along the lines of the paragraph above. Providing you dont feel physically threatened by this guy!
Good luck mate hope it works out.
I am sorry to hear about your current difficulties with your FTO. It’s not an easy situation to be in. From reading your post it sounds that you feel quite intimidated by this instructor, which is perfectly understandable given the situation.
Firstly don't approach your instructor go straight over his head to management! In your experience in the school do you know of a senior member of staff or management with a bit of clout? Someone in seniority that this guy may have clashed with in the past then all the better. At least make sure that the person you complain to is a member of management and senior to your instructor.
You also need to protect your interests. Insist on a new instructor immediately. Demanding might not get you anywhere! The best approach is to be mature and respectful to the person(s) you complain to but it is important that you are assertive and very firm in what you say! Also if you feel confident enough ask the person you make the complaint to, to arrange to meet you and the instructor as there are some questions you may like to address to the instructor. Write the questions down! And ask him in front of the third more senior party. Inform him that the language he uses is far from acceptable and not professional in conduct? Ask why he feels that he has the right to speak to people in such a derogatory manner?
If that gets you no where then you may be left with no option but to return home without completing your training. But that is not the end of the world mate. I am not one to walkout on anything or to quit on anything. But one thing I have learned in life is that you should never allow anyone to speak to you in a manner that is degrading. If they do DO NOT allow it to reflect on you or your confidence!
If you have paid everything up front then try to resolve the situation. If you have not then the best thing to do may be to call it quits. But if that is your only option then make sure you complain about your instructor before leaving and put it all in writing to his superiors and the owner/proprietor/CEO of this instructors conduct. Inform them that this is how they are being represented by a member of their staff.
Finally what goes around comes around. Someone with attitude like his may find it difficult to make it as a professional pilot, who would want to be stuck in a flight deck with someone afflicted with a personality as bad as his? If he has been instructing for a long time maybe he should work on improving him manner, it might help him gain employment as a Pilot for an airline. Presuming that is him goal!
Edited to add this
After all is said and done and once you have made your complaints it would do your confidence to world of good to say whats on your mind directly to the instructor. Don't get drawn into a tit for tat argument with him but point out some of his personal home truths that he may not like to hear, along the lines of the paragraph above. Providing you dont feel physically threatened by this guy!
Good luck mate hope it works out.
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The following information is applicable only if you are conducting your training at a JAA registered facility for a JAA licence (I am assuming you are, under the UK CAA).
Here in LV we also have a large number of registered facilities for the provision of PPL training. They have to comply with very strict rules and procedures. It is highly likely that if your facility is not providing you with reliable instructional materials then they are breaking the rules set out in their training plans (assuming the UK follows similar RF approval procedures to us). Call the CAA and (at least at first without mentioning the school name), enquire if the way you are being treated is in breech of any of the RF mandatory requirements.
Armed with any information from the CAA, you are able to go to the accountable manager (person in charge of the school), and request that they make a few reasonable adjustments (new instructor, give you materials or at least tell you where you can buy the sectionals you need).
If all is still not well then you can rest assured that the CAA will take your experience on board, which could result in you making things better for the next people to pass through.
I trained for my PPL in the USA at a time when UK schools over there were something of a new thing. I had a great time, had lots of different instructors, but ended up doing the bulk of my training with a guy who was an instructor for love, not for money (he was retired United training captain). He taught me so much although I was going into the course already with around 1000 hours of gliding and "jollies" in group A AC. There are good and bad instructors out there, you just need to find one who you can learn from!
RIX
Here in LV we also have a large number of registered facilities for the provision of PPL training. They have to comply with very strict rules and procedures. It is highly likely that if your facility is not providing you with reliable instructional materials then they are breaking the rules set out in their training plans (assuming the UK follows similar RF approval procedures to us). Call the CAA and (at least at first without mentioning the school name), enquire if the way you are being treated is in breech of any of the RF mandatory requirements.
Armed with any information from the CAA, you are able to go to the accountable manager (person in charge of the school), and request that they make a few reasonable adjustments (new instructor, give you materials or at least tell you where you can buy the sectionals you need).
If all is still not well then you can rest assured that the CAA will take your experience on board, which could result in you making things better for the next people to pass through.
I trained for my PPL in the USA at a time when UK schools over there were something of a new thing. I had a great time, had lots of different instructors, but ended up doing the bulk of my training with a guy who was an instructor for love, not for money (he was retired United training captain). He taught me so much although I was going into the course already with around 1000 hours of gliding and "jollies" in group A AC. There are good and bad instructors out there, you just need to find one who you can learn from!
RIX
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Change the instructor right away. It is your money, time, and career. I changed my instructor three times between my PPL and instrument rating. My first instructor was a screamer with bad attitude. When we landed after my third lesson and simply told him it was my last lesson with him because of his attitude. Do it right away....it is probably affecting your rate of learning.
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Name and shame.... let us know who the school is... nothing like word of mouth to spread the word that they are not living up to expectations to give them a much needed kick up the backside. I would also have a quiet word with the school owner especially if several of you feel the same way.
I never understand people like your instructor.... what is he hoping to achieve?? There are some real to**ers in this world.
I never understand people like your instructor.... what is he hoping to achieve?? There are some real to**ers in this world.
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Please please please talk to the chief flying instructor!
It is his/her job to resolve issues such as this. Your current instructor may not be aware that there is a problem. An instructor change will normally resolve the problem, and don't worry, no one will take it personally.
It is his/her job to resolve issues such as this. Your current instructor may not be aware that there is a problem. An instructor change will normally resolve the problem, and don't worry, no one will take it personally.
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I agree a word with the CFI! Not everyone gets along so it's perfectly reasonable and acceptable (even common practice) to request an instructor change in such a situation.
It sounds as if you reached the point in the course, where there would be no point continuing your training until you have the exam passed. You wouldn't want to fly and be ready for test, then wait a week for yourself to pass the exam and then be all rusty! Use the situation as a motivator to exceed your instructors expectations, do the exam, study hard and fly well - that will knock them down a peg or two!
6 weeks is very reasonable, when I trained abroad guys were getting done in 3-4 weeks no problem - just as long as they worked hard - i.e all day! Exhausting on them!
If it's a UK JAA school, they should have a syllabus. Consult the syllabus, it should have an exam schedule on it as well.
On that note also; student records will show the ground school you haven't done so show the CFI that.
It sounds as if you reached the point in the course, where there would be no point continuing your training until you have the exam passed. You wouldn't want to fly and be ready for test, then wait a week for yourself to pass the exam and then be all rusty! Use the situation as a motivator to exceed your instructors expectations, do the exam, study hard and fly well - that will knock them down a peg or two!
6 weeks is very reasonable, when I trained abroad guys were getting done in 3-4 weeks no problem - just as long as they worked hard - i.e all day! Exhausting on them!
If it's a UK JAA school, they should have a syllabus. Consult the syllabus, it should have an exam schedule on it as well.
On that note also; student records will show the ground school you haven't done so show the CFI that.
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NO YOU ARE NOT EXPECTING TOO MUCH!!!!! You're the bloody customer and they need you alot more than you need them right now!!!
Grass Strip Basher is absolutely right, speak up and give this school a kick up the arse. Since I started my training I've been absolutely amazed at the attitude of some (NOT all) FTO's....I think they can sometime fall into the trap of forgetting who the customer is!!!
If your FTO is worth it's salt then they'll sit down and discuss the issues and if needs be, give you a different instructor. If they don't then get the hell out of there and go somewhere that values your custom!!!
Good luck mate!
Grass Strip Basher is absolutely right, speak up and give this school a kick up the arse. Since I started my training I've been absolutely amazed at the attitude of some (NOT all) FTO's....I think they can sometime fall into the trap of forgetting who the customer is!!!
If your FTO is worth it's salt then they'll sit down and discuss the issues and if needs be, give you a different instructor. If they don't then get the hell out of there and go somewhere that values your custom!!!
Good luck mate!
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In fact i really hate my instructor, he treats me and everyone else who flies with him like ****, screams whenever you make a mistake saying "your the worst pilot ive ever seen" and completely destroys confidence.
In most situations the intent of this training method is to motivate the student to push themselves and excel. There's probably a name for it. However, it's a very harsh technique and probably has no place in any modern training environment.
Of course, maybe your instructor isn't ex-mil and is just a nutcase.
I certainly wouldn't pay out money to be treated like this. The last time it happened I was in the Army and didn't have very much choice in the matter - it did work though!
From the clue you provided in the first part of the sentence I quoted, you should change your instructor immediately. If you aren't getting on with him, trade him in for someone else. Repeat until you find someone you like.
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Okay, change instructors as others have said. Some other things:
There is no, zero, nada, JAA requirement to have done any ground exam before you undertake any part of your flight training. The "air law before first solo" is a myth. The "nav before first x-country solo" is a myth. Check JAR-FCL, LASORS or the ANO if you wish. The only requirement in this respect, applicable to you, is that you need to have done a rather simple 18-question FAA exam before you are allowed to fly solo in US airspace. So if your instructor claims that you cannot fly off those last 9 hours you either haven't gone solo yet, or he's lying.
You have to have done all JAA ground exams before you show up for your flight test though.
The school is to provide a certain ICAO map of the UK as part of the exam papers. This is so that you cannot put your own notes on your own map. But to be honest, you don't need this particular map to prepare for the exam. You can just take any map to do your exercises, even if it's a non-ICAO (eg. Jeppesen or FAA) one.
Having said that, if the absence of a 10-quid ICAO map is really holding up your training for more than 10 days I would have ordered one online nine days ago, with overnight delivery specified.
The school where I went to offered evening ground school classes that cycled through the whole curriculum in three weeks. They were included in the package, although I never used them. Were they included in your package? Did you make use of them?
Any groundschool outside these evening classes (except normal pre- and post flight briefings) was considered extra and had to be paid for. That's only fair, in my opinion.
The school I went to specified that you had to buy your own set of books, and even provided a link where you could get them. You were supposed to study as much as you could before you showed up. There were a few confusers that were lying in the briefing room and were donated by previous students "to all future students". They were technically not owned by the school although the school encouraged its use.
Needless to say, you should have gotten these books as soon as you could, even if it meant an overnight Fedex delivery from the UK to the US. You can NOT expect to learn all PPL theory from the confuser alone.
Yes. No problem whatsoever, although you'll probably need a few hours to get used to local procedures, airspace, R/T and such. Make sure that all your paperwork is complete and signed off by the school, including signatures and a stamp from the school saying that your logbook entries have been verified and are correct.
Even though i have just 5 days left on my visa i have not flown for the last 10 days when i have just 9 hours and the check ride left to do because of this one exam.
You have to have done all JAA ground exams before you show up for your flight test though.
I told my instructor i wasnt able to do this exam because it requires the ICAO map, of which there is 1 to share between the whole school and someone else had it.
Having said that, if the absence of a 10-quid ICAO map is really holding up your training for more than 10 days I would have ordered one online nine days ago, with overnight delivery specified.
I have never had any ground training
Any groundschool outside these evening classes (except normal pre- and post flight briefings) was considered extra and had to be paid for. That's only fair, in my opinion.
When i joined the school i was just given the ppl confuser and told to go and study, there was no mentions of having to do certain exams before a certain time , there are not even any books or resources for the students to use if the confuser isnt enough.
Needless to say, you should have gotten these books as soon as you could, even if it meant an overnight Fedex delivery from the UK to the US. You can NOT expect to learn all PPL theory from the confuser alone.
When i leave next week i know i will have completed all of the exams and have just 5 hours left to do before my check ride, is it easy to get this done at a school in the UK when im back?
Last edited by BackPacker; 11th Dec 2008 at 23:03.
Buttonpusher
Like everyone else says I'd get another instructor, I'm not sure about blaming an entire flight school because of one bad apple, but the mention of things being in short supply sounds like it might be a bit of a dodgy school.
Instructors are there to teach not to intimidate especially if you are paying good money, even at the airlines we can get another instructor if the line pilot undergoing training feel like they have a clash of personalities.
Instructors are there to teach not to intimidate especially if you are paying good money, even at the airlines we can get another instructor if the line pilot undergoing training feel like they have a clash of personalities.
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Most of it will probably come too late for you, but you might still benefit from some of the info in here:
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...-part-1-a.html
I'd be real careful with that. We've only heard one side of the story and I'm not convinced the blame is entirely on the flight school. The US JAA schools follow this forum too (or may be alerted to it) and it will not be too hard for the school involved to put a face to a nickname. Better resolve this in a professional manner directly with the school instead of by mud slinging on the internet, which may incidentally expose you to libel charges as well.
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...-part-1-a.html
Name 'em..............
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I'll echo everyone else, complain and get a new instructor. You're human, and deserve respect and patience. If you are willing to start a rumour about a school with a foul instructor, this is the place, and it sounds like you have an eager audience!
Stick with what you belive, despite the naysayers you encounter along the way!
Pilot DAR
Stick with what you belive, despite the naysayers you encounter along the way!
Pilot DAR
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This is a wind up chaps (1 post).
Only a pillock would let their FI shout at them, and stay with them.
It would not happen with American FI's because they would get reported to the FAA.
Only a pillock would let their FI shout at them, and stay with them.
It would not happen with American FI's because they would get reported to the FAA.
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It may well be a windup. However, I well remember from my UK PPL training (in the UK) some instructors who were nothing short of complete clowns, yet I thought they were OK - well for a while anyway.
One also needs to remember that there is no mandatory ground school in either the FAA or the JAA PPL. This "deficiency" is handled differently at different places. When I did my PPL, some instructors ran informal evenings where everybody put a tenner in, and he would chat about various subjects. It is really up to the student to swat up himself and get through the exams somehow - not easy when one has not really done any flying so the whole subject seems alien.
My experience of training in the USA is that it was to a very high and rigorous standard - better organised than anything I had in the UK.
Especially so when one considers that a Brit PPL training in the USA must have got the M1 visa and he must have gone to a Part 141 school and I cannot see any of those being cowboy outfits. Sausage factories yes, reportedly especially in Florida.
One also needs to remember that there is no mandatory ground school in either the FAA or the JAA PPL. This "deficiency" is handled differently at different places. When I did my PPL, some instructors ran informal evenings where everybody put a tenner in, and he would chat about various subjects. It is really up to the student to swat up himself and get through the exams somehow - not easy when one has not really done any flying so the whole subject seems alien.
My experience of training in the USA is that it was to a very high and rigorous standard - better organised than anything I had in the UK.
Especially so when one considers that a Brit PPL training in the USA must have got the M1 visa and he must have gone to a Part 141 school and I cannot see any of those being cowboy outfits. Sausage factories yes, reportedly especially in Florida.