Buying an aircraft
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How long is a piece of string... what do you want it for?
On the whole, a fair few, in the current climate. There was someone here the other day trying to get shot of a PA28 (albeit the horribly underpowered version) for a lot less than that. All sorts of certified aircraft available, although mainly older models, many of them only 2 seaters.
Get hold of some of the rags, they all have an aircraft for sale section. Just be aware that the purchase price is only the beginning. You've got insurance, maintenance etc to worry about which isn't cheap. Permit aircraft are the way to go if you want cheap flying, but you're constrained to day/vmc only, and other stuff associated with them not being certified to an international standard.
What do you want to do with it? You'll get much better answers if you expand a bit.
On the whole, a fair few, in the current climate. There was someone here the other day trying to get shot of a PA28 (albeit the horribly underpowered version) for a lot less than that. All sorts of certified aircraft available, although mainly older models, many of them only 2 seaters.
Get hold of some of the rags, they all have an aircraft for sale section. Just be aware that the purchase price is only the beginning. You've got insurance, maintenance etc to worry about which isn't cheap. Permit aircraft are the way to go if you want cheap flying, but you're constrained to day/vmc only, and other stuff associated with them not being certified to an international standard.
What do you want to do with it? You'll get much better answers if you expand a bit.
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Just finished my ppl in July. Have about 75 hrs now, mostly is 152, but have also flown 172 (Glass Cockpit) and Warrior II.
Realy like the Warrior, so could be interedted in a PA-28 of some description. Can you explan the certification stuff?
Really just want aircraft for day time pleasure flying. My budget would be about 15K for aircraft and upto 5K/ year to spend on overheads and flying of course.
5K would buy me around 40 hrs in a club aircraft. After overheads, how much would be left out of my 5K for flying/ fuel?
Cheers,
John
Realy like the Warrior, so could be interedted in a PA-28 of some description. Can you explan the certification stuff?
Really just want aircraft for day time pleasure flying. My budget would be about 15K for aircraft and upto 5K/ year to spend on overheads and flying of course.
5K would buy me around 40 hrs in a club aircraft. After overheads, how much would be left out of my 5K for flying/ fuel?
Cheers,
John
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John,
15K would probably get you a nice, tidy Cessna 152 if you require certified, 15K would get you a worn out PA-28 which would not be a good first aeroplane. The other (more?) important factor are the running costs which can make or break ownership. Insurance, maintenance (regular, faults, wear and tear), hangarage, gallons per hour, etc. You need to work out what you can afford per year for these costs (ask here or at your airfield for realistic figures). If your calculations are missing or wrong when you buy you will end up flying less and less saving fuel costs, and a white elephant sitting in the hangar being a real risk. To help, 40 hours in a 152 will cost approx. a quarter of you quoted budget in fuel alone. Purchasing a share in an existing group would seem a good solution for you, a low purchase cost for a share in a nice aeroplane and splitting the running costs between a number of share holders.
15K would probably get you a nice, tidy Cessna 152 if you require certified, 15K would get you a worn out PA-28 which would not be a good first aeroplane. The other (more?) important factor are the running costs which can make or break ownership. Insurance, maintenance (regular, faults, wear and tear), hangarage, gallons per hour, etc. You need to work out what you can afford per year for these costs (ask here or at your airfield for realistic figures). If your calculations are missing or wrong when you buy you will end up flying less and less saving fuel costs, and a white elephant sitting in the hangar being a real risk. To help, 40 hours in a 152 will cost approx. a quarter of you quoted budget in fuel alone. Purchasing a share in an existing group would seem a good solution for you, a low purchase cost for a share in a nice aeroplane and splitting the running costs between a number of share holders.
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With 15k (GBP I take it?), I would start looking through pilot and flyer for a 1/4 share in something worth 60, or 1/8 in something really special. Most groups have a couple of members who are really regular flyers while the rest are once a month guys.
I once knew a groups who had 8 members for 2 aircraft (152 and Arrow 4). They would fly every weekend and seemed to have a roster to dictate who would fly together so they all flew the same hours - they were all good friends and would normally fly off together (both aircraft to the same destination). They would split the flying duties (1 flying 1 Rad and navs, airliner style). Groups like this seem to be the exception, not the rule.
If you want to go down the PFA route you will find lots available. For CofA aircraft you really are restricting yourself to the 2 seat market unless you pitch for either a complete nail or you manage to bag the ultimate bargain. Certainly forget anything like your previous glass 172 - the avionics would be your budget - plane to come later!
Go on amazon and get a copy of "The corporate aircraft owner's handbook". Was written in the early 80's, gives a lot of advice on buying, running and maintaining piston AC, and nearly all of the advice in there is still relevant today, 25 years later.
Good luck in your search!
RIX
I once knew a groups who had 8 members for 2 aircraft (152 and Arrow 4). They would fly every weekend and seemed to have a roster to dictate who would fly together so they all flew the same hours - they were all good friends and would normally fly off together (both aircraft to the same destination). They would split the flying duties (1 flying 1 Rad and navs, airliner style). Groups like this seem to be the exception, not the rule.
If you want to go down the PFA route you will find lots available. For CofA aircraft you really are restricting yourself to the 2 seat market unless you pitch for either a complete nail or you manage to bag the ultimate bargain. Certainly forget anything like your previous glass 172 - the avionics would be your budget - plane to come later!
Go on amazon and get a copy of "The corporate aircraft owner's handbook". Was written in the early 80's, gives a lot of advice on buying, running and maintaining piston AC, and nearly all of the advice in there is still relevant today, 25 years later.
Good luck in your search!
RIX
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£15k will buy you a pretty reasonable, high time, PA28 140. It might even buy you a really clapped out Warrior. I've owned a PA28 140, an Archer II and an Arrow III, by myself and enjoyed nearly every minute of the experience; getting into and flying your own machine is a pretty wonderful indulgence. However, some typical ownership figures based on something on a C of A, flown for 100 hrs P/A, kept outside (don't even ask about hangerage) in the SE of England, are as follows:
Parking (£175 pcm) £2,100 P/A
Insurance £1,000 P/A
Maintenance (1 x annual) £2,000
(1 x 50 hr check) £400
Engine fund (£7.50ph X 100hrs) £750
fuel (£1.50pl x 30 x 100) £4,500
Total £10,750 P/A
Which equals £107.50 ph!
However, if you fly 200hrs P/A, the sum is more like this:
Parking (£175 pcm) £2,100 P/A
Insurance £1,000 P/A
Maintenance (1 x annual) £2,000
(3 x 50 hr check) £1,200
Engine fund (£7.50ph X 200hrs) £1,500
fuel (£1.50pl x 30 x 200) £9,000
Total £16,800 P/A
Which equals £84 P/H!
Clearly there is an economy of scale to be had, whereby the more you fly, the cheaper it gets on an hourly basis. These figures are ball park figures based on a C of A A/C, maintained to the easa version of a public transport C of A, and also assumes that you dont bend it and nothing goes wrong with the avionics or paint or airframe....etc.
There are some good reasons to either join a group or run a PFA machine or a microlight. Personally - and this is a totally personal point of view, from someone who has the means to own by himself - I'm uneasy about groups; when they work, they are a wonderful thing - when they don't, it can be very uncomfortable. As with managing a freehold house divided into flats, the maintenance schedule generally gets dictated by the meanest person in the building.
Good luck either way you decide!
Parking (£175 pcm) £2,100 P/A
Insurance £1,000 P/A
Maintenance (1 x annual) £2,000
(1 x 50 hr check) £400
Engine fund (£7.50ph X 100hrs) £750
fuel (£1.50pl x 30 x 100) £4,500
Total £10,750 P/A
Which equals £107.50 ph!
However, if you fly 200hrs P/A, the sum is more like this:
Parking (£175 pcm) £2,100 P/A
Insurance £1,000 P/A
Maintenance (1 x annual) £2,000
(3 x 50 hr check) £1,200
Engine fund (£7.50ph X 200hrs) £1,500
fuel (£1.50pl x 30 x 200) £9,000
Total £16,800 P/A
Which equals £84 P/H!
Clearly there is an economy of scale to be had, whereby the more you fly, the cheaper it gets on an hourly basis. These figures are ball park figures based on a C of A A/C, maintained to the easa version of a public transport C of A, and also assumes that you dont bend it and nothing goes wrong with the avionics or paint or airframe....etc.
There are some good reasons to either join a group or run a PFA machine or a microlight. Personally - and this is a totally personal point of view, from someone who has the means to own by himself - I'm uneasy about groups; when they work, they are a wonderful thing - when they don't, it can be very uncomfortable. As with managing a freehold house divided into flats, the maintenance schedule generally gets dictated by the meanest person in the building.
Good luck either way you decide!
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You could go along the Permit aircraft route - Aeronca, Taylorcraft, Luscombe, Jodel are a few of the classics, with some wonderful support from their concomitant clubs and afficiandos. All within your budget.
The newer end of the market is possible if you can get a share. I'm thinking of Europas and the like.
I think that 50 - 100 hours a year is the break even point on ownership against renting, depending on various fairly obvious factors.
Probably the most important thing: do you have hangarage lined up or are you having to tie down outside? If the latter, you are limited to spam can types (in the nicest possible sense).
Visit other airfields where there are a goodly selection of diverse types and talk to owners; we love talking aeroplanes and will bore you rigid. Keep an open mind and don't rush into anything. Then ignore all the advice on here and do what you want to do.
The newer end of the market is possible if you can get a share. I'm thinking of Europas and the like.
I think that 50 - 100 hours a year is the break even point on ownership against renting, depending on various fairly obvious factors.
Probably the most important thing: do you have hangarage lined up or are you having to tie down outside? If the latter, you are limited to spam can types (in the nicest possible sense).
Visit other airfields where there are a goodly selection of diverse types and talk to owners; we love talking aeroplanes and will bore you rigid. Keep an open mind and don't rush into anything. Then ignore all the advice on here and do what you want to do.
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Also, if you don't in a property with a suitably long driveway, consider buddying up with a farmer who has his own strip and barns for hangarage. I knew one such type who ran a mini GA airfield from his farm. The costs associated with being there were 75% lower than the neighbouring GA airfield (to which you could do the 4nm positioning flight each time you needed to fill the tanks). All residents of that particular airfield were more than content with their lot.
RIX
RIX
I have a Warrior 11 and wsmempson's figures for 100 hours are spot on.
However two things...
1. I usually do 100 hours per year, but that is sometimes a struggle for one person to do...
2.Your 450 metre field may be marginal in a PA28 for an inexperienced pilot, but I think you realise this!
If £15k and £5K per year running costs are your maximum investments then you really do need to join a group or you could end up with something pretty basic...
UV
However two things...
1. I usually do 100 hours per year, but that is sometimes a struggle for one person to do...
2.Your 450 metre field may be marginal in a PA28 for an inexperienced pilot, but I think you realise this!
If £15k and £5K per year running costs are your maximum investments then you really do need to join a group or you could end up with something pretty basic...
UV
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15K is a tight budget for an aircraft. Something to consider using the hours mentioned,
I used to own an Ikarus C42 with a rotax engine, I done 275 hrs in the first year I owned this aircraft.
fuel mogas (£0.95pl x 15 x 200) £2,850.00
As you can see this would drastically reduce your out goings possibly allowing to release money to finance a better machine.
I know own an RV6
fuel avgas (£1.50pl x 25 x 200) £7,500.00
Seems a lot for the RV6 but as it can cruise at 150kts for 25 lts an hour I have only done a little over a hundered hours in a year with this aircraft. It just gets everywhere twice as quick.
As others have said shares are probally the cheapest way fowards but if you are determined to own outright then have a little think about the fuel as it's the dominent figure, it could be cheaper to finance for some of the amount of a rotaxed aircraft to gain cheaper running costs.
Just a thought.
I used to own an Ikarus C42 with a rotax engine, I done 275 hrs in the first year I owned this aircraft.
fuel mogas (£0.95pl x 15 x 200) £2,850.00
As you can see this would drastically reduce your out goings possibly allowing to release money to finance a better machine.
I know own an RV6
fuel avgas (£1.50pl x 25 x 200) £7,500.00
Seems a lot for the RV6 but as it can cruise at 150kts for 25 lts an hour I have only done a little over a hundered hours in a year with this aircraft. It just gets everywhere twice as quick.
As others have said shares are probally the cheapest way fowards but if you are determined to own outright then have a little think about the fuel as it's the dominent figure, it could be cheaper to finance for some of the amount of a rotaxed aircraft to gain cheaper running costs.
Just a thought.
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Group ownership is potentially the most economical route to go, unless you have a burning desire to own your aircraft outright. If you really are going to fly 100+ hours per year then outright ownership is probably needed to secure availability. Most people don't fly anything near that amount, even if they say that they will!
The best structure is a small group of around 4 of you. Big groups often become impossible to manage. I am treasurer of one such group and getting people to pay is sometimes a nightmare. Having said that, my local Cub group runs very well indeed with 14 members.
Choice of aircraft is very important. Permit is definately the way to go, though you will not be able to train for licences or ratings on such an aircraft. Maintenance is far cheaper as you don't need a licensed engineer and all the Part M, Sub part G stuff which goes with having and aircraft on an EASA C of A. There is also alot more you can do yourselves.
Fuel burn can be an issue. My Pioneer does say 18 litres per hour, so for 50 hours a year I will spend about £850 on mogas. Pick something burning say 30 litres per hour (about 8 US gallons) and the figure for 50 hours on Avgas jumps to around £2500, a difference of some £1600 per year. That is significant to my mind. Mission profile is very important. So many people hanker after a "touring" aircraft but in reality most of their flying is local and an hour or less. Having an Arrow, C172 or similar for local jollies is really over kill. Again, there are many Permit aircraft which will give you cheap and fast touring capabilities (within reason) but which will also have crisp handling to make the entire flying experience more fun. Some of course will add some aerobatic capabilities if that is what you want.
Your £15,000 will buy you a decent share in an aircraft in good condition. In a group of say 4, that equates to a hull value in the order of £60k, for which you are getting access to alot of aircraft for your money. Though you can pay a lot less for a share, paying more and buying a newer and therefore more up to date aircraft reduces the chance of being hit by big maintenance bills. You are of course also dividing the hangerage and insurance into 4, which takes your fixed costs down to less per year than I pay in insurance alone
The best structure is a small group of around 4 of you. Big groups often become impossible to manage. I am treasurer of one such group and getting people to pay is sometimes a nightmare. Having said that, my local Cub group runs very well indeed with 14 members.
Choice of aircraft is very important. Permit is definately the way to go, though you will not be able to train for licences or ratings on such an aircraft. Maintenance is far cheaper as you don't need a licensed engineer and all the Part M, Sub part G stuff which goes with having and aircraft on an EASA C of A. There is also alot more you can do yourselves.
Fuel burn can be an issue. My Pioneer does say 18 litres per hour, so for 50 hours a year I will spend about £850 on mogas. Pick something burning say 30 litres per hour (about 8 US gallons) and the figure for 50 hours on Avgas jumps to around £2500, a difference of some £1600 per year. That is significant to my mind. Mission profile is very important. So many people hanker after a "touring" aircraft but in reality most of their flying is local and an hour or less. Having an Arrow, C172 or similar for local jollies is really over kill. Again, there are many Permit aircraft which will give you cheap and fast touring capabilities (within reason) but which will also have crisp handling to make the entire flying experience more fun. Some of course will add some aerobatic capabilities if that is what you want.
Your £15,000 will buy you a decent share in an aircraft in good condition. In a group of say 4, that equates to a hull value in the order of £60k, for which you are getting access to alot of aircraft for your money. Though you can pay a lot less for a share, paying more and buying a newer and therefore more up to date aircraft reduces the chance of being hit by big maintenance bills. You are of course also dividing the hangerage and insurance into 4, which takes your fixed costs down to less per year than I pay in insurance alone
Last edited by Justiciar; 1st Dec 2008 at 08:42. Reason: to correct spelling!
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Mission profile
I'd like to add this to the list of buffling terms, along with "per se" that seem to be creeping into a lot of internet forums lately
Top Twenty Buffling Terms
1 Thinking outside of the box
2 Touch base
3 At the end of the day
4 Going forward
5 All of it
6 Blue sky thinking
7 Out of the box
8 Credit crunch
9 Heads up
10 Singing from the same hymn sheet
11 Pro-active
12 Downsizing
13 Ducks in a row
14 Brainstorming
15 Thought shower
16 360º thinking
17 Flag it up
18 Pushing the envelope
19 At this moment in time
20 In the loop
21 Mission profile (NEW)
More office speak you love to hate.
Sorry, back to the topic now ....
I'd like to add this to the list of buffling terms, along with "per se" that seem to be creeping into a lot of internet forums lately
Top Twenty Buffling Terms
1 Thinking outside of the box
2 Touch base
3 At the end of the day
4 Going forward
5 All of it
6 Blue sky thinking
7 Out of the box
8 Credit crunch
9 Heads up
10 Singing from the same hymn sheet
11 Pro-active
12 Downsizing
13 Ducks in a row
14 Brainstorming
15 Thought shower
16 360º thinking
17 Flag it up
18 Pushing the envelope
19 At this moment in time
20 In the loop
21 Mission profile (NEW)
More office speak you love to hate.
Sorry, back to the topic now ....
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If you are OK with VFR only then 15k is no problem. For that you can get a good LAA 2 seater with around C150 performance. Running costs likely to be;
Maintenance £1000
Insurance £800
Hangarage (on a strip) £1000
Fuel burn 20 lph of Mogas
This will be substantially cheaper than a C of A machine. If you are interested in a share then a modern Rotax VLA will cost around £50k and give you 130kn plus on 15 – 18 lph. Running costs typically;
Maintenance £250
Insurance £1200
Hangarage £1000
Fuel Burn 15lph. Of Mogas.
Both the above will operate quite happily out of 450 m if you can get the power lines moved.
Rod1
Maintenance £1000
Insurance £800
Hangarage (on a strip) £1000
Fuel burn 20 lph of Mogas
This will be substantially cheaper than a C of A machine. If you are interested in a share then a modern Rotax VLA will cost around £50k and give you 130kn plus on 15 – 18 lph. Running costs typically;
Maintenance £250
Insurance £1200
Hangarage £1000
Fuel Burn 15lph. Of Mogas.
Both the above will operate quite happily out of 450 m if you can get the power lines moved.
Rod1
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Different engines have different TBOs. Some airframes are lifed, eg Bulldog, most are not. Engines vary in price, but generally un certified engines will be cheaper than certified ones.
A Permit is not a C of A. It is a non ICAO compliant permission from a national CAA allowing an aircraft to fly in national airspace. Having said that, you can fly in most EU countries and some non EU countries without specific authority, but you do need to check.
A Permit aircraft has more relaxed regulatory requirements meaning that you aircraft work can be signed off by an LAA inspector rather than an expensive certified maintenance facility.
A Permit is not a C of A. It is a non ICAO compliant permission from a national CAA allowing an aircraft to fly in national airspace. Having said that, you can fly in most EU countries and some non EU countries without specific authority, but you do need to check.
A Permit aircraft has more relaxed regulatory requirements meaning that you aircraft work can be signed off by an LAA inspector rather than an expensive certified maintenance facility.
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Mind the wires !
Lt
Sounds to me like you need a Jodel - £15K will do nicely.
Where (roughly) is your farm ?
There are plenty of strips where overhead lines cross the runway, or pass nearby. Or may have been undergrounded...
More info needed.
tth
Sounds to me like you need a Jodel - £15K will do nicely.
Where (roughly) is your farm ?
There are plenty of strips where overhead lines cross the runway, or pass nearby. Or may have been undergrounded...
More info needed.
tth