Mountain Wave
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Mountain Wave
I had my first experience of mountain wave last week. As a fairly new PPL with less than 100 hours P1 it created some concern.
Flying between Cumbernauld and Bournemouth between St Albans Head and as far south as Luton the effects were greater than 500ft pm decent, enough for the PA28 Archer to barely maintain level flight at full power with an IAS of 70Kts at 7000ft. Climbing was out of the question. The direction of the wave was 90 degrees off and there were no physical external signs, like lenticular clouds.
The effects of wave were never covered on my PPL course, apart from a little bit in Met theory. I wonder what the results might have been in a slightly stronger wave at a lower altitude and how you would get yourself out of such a situation safely?
Flying between Cumbernauld and Bournemouth between St Albans Head and as far south as Luton the effects were greater than 500ft pm decent, enough for the PA28 Archer to barely maintain level flight at full power with an IAS of 70Kts at 7000ft. Climbing was out of the question. The direction of the wave was 90 degrees off and there were no physical external signs, like lenticular clouds.
The effects of wave were never covered on my PPL course, apart from a little bit in Met theory. I wonder what the results might have been in a slightly stronger wave at a lower altitude and how you would get yourself out of such a situation safely?
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There are specific mountain flying courses available in western Canada. They are well worth the money, and even then, just the tip of the iceburg for learning about this.
The key is not planning to get yourself out, but planning to not get yourself in. Getting out is sometimes just not possible, and you won't know 'till you're in! It sounds like you were in a very gentle one. Good for you, it got your attention without hurting you, many are not that lucky. Both mountains and thunderstorms are pretty, and intriguing. Give them both about the same amount of space when flying...
Pilot DAR
The key is not planning to get yourself out, but planning to not get yourself in. Getting out is sometimes just not possible, and you won't know 'till you're in! It sounds like you were in a very gentle one. Good for you, it got your attention without hurting you, many are not that lucky. Both mountains and thunderstorms are pretty, and intriguing. Give them both about the same amount of space when flying...
Pilot DAR
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Join a gliding club - particularly one like Deeside at Aboyne - they know all about wave flying! They want into it - but that's only when it's going up.
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Nibbler - Google will tell you lots about waves. Not quite sure what you mean by 'at 90 degrees', but in basic terms wherever there is a down wave there is an up wave not far away. If you plan to fly along a ridge or row of hills in wave conditions, best to route on the upwind side where the air will almost certainly be going up. If you cannot, and get caught, step sideways towards or away from the ridge to find the 'up'. If you are going 'across' the wave, relief will come shortly
.
I had wave over the highlands a while back in a Cessna 310 at FL85 which went from full power 80mph to throttles closed 160mph.
.I had wave over the highlands a while back in a Cessna 310 at FL85 which went from full power 80mph to throttles closed 160mph.
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This absolutely astounds me. I keep hearing people posting about not having been taught regarding using their mixture, about mountain waves, density altitude, weight and balance, etc...these are all very basic things that should be taught in ground school before the flying ever begins...and reinforced and taught throughout the flight training. We're not talking esoteric subjects of passing interest; these are fundamental to learning how to fly an airplane; the bare-bones basics, and the building blocks. Are these things seriously being omitted? I find this hard to believe.
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Mountain waves are scary, more so the first time you "try it"!
Living in a part of the world where wind and craggy terrain is plentiful, I've had the 'pleasure' of ending up in several during my short flying career!
They are however something that you can plan against, and even if you get caught in a bad one, you can get away from it. (You might find yourself mighty close to the valley floor before things calms down, but 99% of the time you will find calmer air.)
I ended up in a mountain wave on my first post-license navigation bimble in a C-172. It was a bit windy from the SW, 20-35knts, but SKC/-15C, so i planned to fly well above highest terrain elevation on the parts of my flight I know are prone to waves. About half way up a valley heading north at 7500ft (and positioned in the valley as far away from the peaks as I though necessary) i got hit by a wave coming off the Njunis mountain massif (5633ft) , and the fun and games began.
At max power and Vy all I got from the old Cessna was a 800 fpm descend (!)
In short I ended up about 1000ft AGL over a lake to the north (Aptly called "Dødes vann" or "The lake of the dead".......) before things calmed down, and the Cessna began to climb again. Have to admit the blood pressure was a bit high for about 10 minutes!
Now, have encountered a few more since then, but I've learned to read the wind forecasts with a bit more skepticism, and stay away from the mountains as much as possible wind the wind is up.
Living in a part of the world where wind and craggy terrain is plentiful, I've had the 'pleasure' of ending up in several during my short flying career!
They are however something that you can plan against, and even if you get caught in a bad one, you can get away from it. (You might find yourself mighty close to the valley floor before things calms down, but 99% of the time you will find calmer air.)
I ended up in a mountain wave on my first post-license navigation bimble in a C-172. It was a bit windy from the SW, 20-35knts, but SKC/-15C, so i planned to fly well above highest terrain elevation on the parts of my flight I know are prone to waves. About half way up a valley heading north at 7500ft (and positioned in the valley as far away from the peaks as I though necessary) i got hit by a wave coming off the Njunis mountain massif (5633ft) , and the fun and games began.
At max power and Vy all I got from the old Cessna was a 800 fpm descend (!)
In short I ended up about 1000ft AGL over a lake to the north (Aptly called "Dødes vann" or "The lake of the dead".......) before things calmed down, and the Cessna began to climb again. Have to admit the blood pressure was a bit high for about 10 minutes!
Now, have encountered a few more since then, but I've learned to read the wind forecasts with a bit more skepticism, and stay away from the mountains as much as possible wind the wind is up.
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Unless you are an experienced Alpine flyer or glider pilot versed in the ways of mountain wave then exercise extreme caution when MW is forcast
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I think its more to do with regional bias with whats required to stay safe in the area.
Weight and balance is not included in this statement.
Density alt in the UK is not normally an issue for most if not all of the year, temps are sub ISA and most airfields are sub 100ft elevation. So for alot of pilots instructors included density alt is a theoretical concept which is never touched on unless they go on holiday and do a bit of flying abroad. There is a couple of air fields where it is an issue eg netherthope.
I think the mixture thing is mainly to do with the fact that most VFR flights in the UK are capped at A5.0 by either wx or airspace restrictions most don't go above A3.0, the instructors know the theory of leaning the engine but very rarely put it into use.
Up in the north we did used to cover the problems and issues regarding flying near hills. But due to said hills and lack of controlled airspace we couldn't expose the students to the joys of flat feature saturated plains and avoiding complicated bits of controlled airspace with a multituded of various ATC agency's to be contacted. But the southern london schools could but couldn't expose the students to the joys of getting caught in a washing machine in rotar or the bum twitching moment of being at full power going down at best glide speed.
As an ex-instructor with most of my time in the North I would be very wary of flying out of say Redhill (very near to 3 of the london airports or approaches) and it would be quite stressful flying around that area VFR. And vice versa I should imagine a instructor from Red hill would find it equally stressful dealing with the scottish wx and navigating through the hills.
In the UK we are a bit finatical about using carb heat other places in the world eg Fl they hardly mention it apart from a pre flight check. Come to think of it in my PPL in FL they didn't mention mountain wave. But they certainly mentioned CB's, funnel clouds, gust fronts and the like.
Weight and balance is not included in this statement.
Density alt in the UK is not normally an issue for most if not all of the year, temps are sub ISA and most airfields are sub 100ft elevation. So for alot of pilots instructors included density alt is a theoretical concept which is never touched on unless they go on holiday and do a bit of flying abroad. There is a couple of air fields where it is an issue eg netherthope.
I think the mixture thing is mainly to do with the fact that most VFR flights in the UK are capped at A5.0 by either wx or airspace restrictions most don't go above A3.0, the instructors know the theory of leaning the engine but very rarely put it into use.
Up in the north we did used to cover the problems and issues regarding flying near hills. But due to said hills and lack of controlled airspace we couldn't expose the students to the joys of flat feature saturated plains and avoiding complicated bits of controlled airspace with a multituded of various ATC agency's to be contacted. But the southern london schools could but couldn't expose the students to the joys of getting caught in a washing machine in rotar or the bum twitching moment of being at full power going down at best glide speed.
As an ex-instructor with most of my time in the North I would be very wary of flying out of say Redhill (very near to 3 of the london airports or approaches) and it would be quite stressful flying around that area VFR. And vice versa I should imagine a instructor from Red hill would find it equally stressful dealing with the scottish wx and navigating through the hills.
In the UK we are a bit finatical about using carb heat other places in the world eg Fl they hardly mention it apart from a pre flight check. Come to think of it in my PPL in FL they didn't mention mountain wave. But they certainly mentioned CB's, funnel clouds, gust fronts and the like.
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Also be aware how far those mountian waves can travel before they really dissipate. We live in Wisconsin, where the tallest bump is 1952 ft above sea level, so any mountain waves have come from a lot further west. I have experienced slight to moderate - +/- 2-300 fpm RoC or RoD flying south from Wisconsin, so not going any nearer to those great big Rockies. The distance from Denver to Milwaukee is over 900 miles, so those waves have travelled a long way to get here.
All the more reason to stay high, and well clear of any potential waves if you have to fly.
I suppose it goes to prove what many examiners say - the licence you get is basically a licence to start learning. If anyone (and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here) gets their licence, then sits back on their laurels and stops striving to broaden their aviation knowledge through study, they are asking for a scare. Of course, plenty of us still get plenty of scares, study or no study
All the more reason to stay high, and well clear of any potential waves if you have to fly.
I suppose it goes to prove what many examiners say - the licence you get is basically a licence to start learning. If anyone (and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here) gets their licence, then sits back on their laurels and stops striving to broaden their aviation knowledge through study, they are asking for a scare. Of course, plenty of us still get plenty of scares, study or no study
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"Mountain Flying Bible" sparky iversen. Buy it, read it ,learn then go to Canada and do a mountain course (funds ????)
I dont see the point going down the gliding route, they have a different perspective for obvious reasons.
I dont see the point going down the gliding route, they have a different perspective for obvious reasons.
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Well I did my PPL in the USA and you learn about all these things that seem to be omitted from the UK syllabus!!!
I would add that a) everyone going anywhere near big hills should read up on mountain wave as it can be quite scary and b) learning as much as possible about weather should be natural for a pilot.
I know about wave flying as I've done it in a few times in gliders (and light aircraft ) however I know what it is like to be in conditons where you cannot get out of the down draft. I've been in Nevada and going down rapidly, in a PA28, with full power on - in fact ATC asked if I was declaring an emergency - they thought I'd had an engine failure!!! There are ways out of it, but sometimes it is strong and takes longer than you think to get out of it.
So - go read up!
I would add that a) everyone going anywhere near big hills should read up on mountain wave as it can be quite scary and b) learning as much as possible about weather should be natural for a pilot.
I know about wave flying as I've done it in a few times in gliders (and light aircraft
) however I know what it is like to be in conditons where you cannot get out of the down draft. I've been in Nevada and going down rapidly, in a PA28, with full power on - in fact ATC asked if I was declaring an emergency - they thought I'd had an engine failure!!! There are ways out of it, but sometimes it is strong and takes longer than you think to get out of it.So - go read up!
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lots of fun flying in the Rockies of Western Canada, did all my CPL nav trips through the valleys. My plan was always to check the upper winds before flying as an indicator, always have a get-out plan (e.g. cross ridges at a small intercept angle incase you need to turn around quickly), rotor/lenticular clouds near peaks may be an indicator of MW activity, and be as high as you can...altitude = safety! am sure there's lots more tips other people have....
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As a very, very, rough approximation, Mountain Wave usually sets up parallel to mountain ridges and perpendicular to the wind direction. So, if you fly downwind of hills/ridges then you should expect some wave effect which varies depending upon wind strength, changes in strength with height and a few other factors. Often the quickest way out of a wave bar is, providing it's safe to do so, change heading by 90 degress.
So, and I accept that this is a very broad generalization (and massively simplified), as a first step try changing heading to give yourself a good chance of escaping the rapidly sinking air.
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I think its more to do with regional bias with whats required to stay safe in the area.
Weight and balance is not included in this statement.
Weight and balance is not included in this statement.
One may live in a flat desert, but should understand mountains. One may live in the desert, but should know about cold weather operations. One may live in the mountains but should understand flat land navigation. One may live on an island, but still must understand cross country flight. All important, and all must be taught.
So far as flight within a mountain wave goes, it's oscillating air; it goes up it comes down. If you can't maintain level flight, so be it. Go down, or go up with the rising air. If the air is rising, then you can either rise with it and come down later, or you can push forward, maintain altitude, and accept higher speed. Or reduce power. If the air is going down, and you can't maintain altitude, then go down with it. Not a big deal.
I've spent much of my flying life, including all my time as a private pilot, in mountainous areas where up and down drafts of up to several thousand feet per minute were common. To this day I still seek out rising air to take advantage of the free lift. Where air is going down, somewhere it's going up...find it. A downdraft of 500 fpm is fairly mild. Even if you're only 500' above the ground to start, that gives you a minute to fly out of it, and the rate of descent close to the ground will decrease markedly as the downflow changes to outflow and reduces in vertical component. In other words, the downdraft or descending air, isn't going to fly you into the ground. It's just a decrease in performance, and that's all.
If you're indeed in a wave, somewhere upwind or downwind of your position you're going to find rising air. Know the dynamics of the wave (based on knowing what's causing it), and you can take advantage of that wave to reduce fuel burn, increase speed, etc.
Waves tend to run perpendicular to the wind. If the wind is out of the east, the waves will run north and south. Find rising air in that wave as you fly south, and you can ride it like a ridge.
When you find a mountain wave, rush to get out of it. It's an ideal learning experience. Explore it a little. Trying climbing and descending and turning in it to find boundaries, learn about performance, learn how to identify it.
You won't always see lenticular clouds with a mountain wave...most of the time you won't see anything. A mountain wave can extend hundreds of miles downstream, and can be found from the surface all the way up into the flight levels. Air quality around a mountain wave might be smooth as glass, or hold severe clear air turbulence. Often as not, it's smooth, and the only indication you'll have is performance.
One doesn't "get caught" in a mountain wave. One simply flies through it, across it, or in it. Then one flies out of it or away from it. Very simple. If one doesn't like one's performance, then turn and fly to a different place. the mountain wave tends to remain geostatic, that is, it tends to stay in one place geographically so long as the wind value remains the same. It's characteristics remain fairly uniform, it's a known quantity. It's not going to follow you.
Flying to another point in space may mean crossing another ridge or trough of the wave...still not a big deal. As always, if you don't like the performance, turn a little and fly somewhere else. Not a big deal. There's nothing to "trap you." Simply fly away.
A mountain wave isn't something to be afraid of. It's nothing more than modified airflow. You can see it in a stream downstream of a rock, sometimes, or as ripples above the stream bed.
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I agree
In the UK the issue has become cyclic. There are very few experienced old hands in the industry like yourself Guppy. The experence base of instructors and thier supervising Instructors is quite low. Most never fly a complex aircraft after there CPL next step is a boeing or airbus or a FADEC 20 ton Turboprop.
I won't say they are not taught its just that no great emphasis is placed on them. Where as other topics are hammered to death.
In the UK the issue has become cyclic. There are very few experienced old hands in the industry like yourself Guppy. The experence base of instructors and thier supervising Instructors is quite low. Most never fly a complex aircraft after there CPL next step is a boeing or airbus or a FADEC 20 ton Turboprop.
I won't say they are not taught its just that no great emphasis is placed on them. Where as other topics are hammered to death.
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Well...I think experience is okay, in fact a very good thing, but my concern isn't that students aren't being taught about advanced systems or even retractable landing gear. It's the important things that worry me.
Several threads here have addressed issues in which various posters cite not being taught to use the performance charts in their aircraft flight manual. others have discussed never having been taught how to use the mixture. These are real concerns. Weather related learning is also a big concern, obviously...which is the topic of this thread.
Do the training requirements in the UK not address these topics, or is this a failing on the part of instructors? Either way, it's not endemic to the UK...unfortunately I see it other places too...where I know full well the regulation requires the instructor to teach these things. It's not a failing on the part of the student...it's a failing on the part of the instructor.
This is one of the great values of sites such as this, where the questions can be asked and answered. Clearly someone's being taught these things as there are enough knowledgeable posters right here to properly answer the question to prove this to be the case.
I suppose my biggest concern would be cases where inadequate training is provided, and the student is released on his or her own, not knowing. It's good that individuals take it upon themselves to be proactive and participate here or other such places...but what of those who don't? What can be done to enhance the education process to ensure that others who may not have the information they should, get it in a way that's meaningful and relevant?
Several threads here have addressed issues in which various posters cite not being taught to use the performance charts in their aircraft flight manual. others have discussed never having been taught how to use the mixture. These are real concerns. Weather related learning is also a big concern, obviously...which is the topic of this thread.
Do the training requirements in the UK not address these topics, or is this a failing on the part of instructors? Either way, it's not endemic to the UK...unfortunately I see it other places too...where I know full well the regulation requires the instructor to teach these things. It's not a failing on the part of the student...it's a failing on the part of the instructor.
This is one of the great values of sites such as this, where the questions can be asked and answered. Clearly someone's being taught these things as there are enough knowledgeable posters right here to properly answer the question to prove this to be the case.
I suppose my biggest concern would be cases where inadequate training is provided, and the student is released on his or her own, not knowing. It's good that individuals take it upon themselves to be proactive and participate here or other such places...but what of those who don't? What can be done to enhance the education process to ensure that others who may not have the information they should, get it in a way that's meaningful and relevant?
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The comment about going straight from instructing to something large wasn't really meant that way.
Instructors in the UK will tend to stay static once working so they will arrive with 230 hours and then stay in the same area flying 2-4 seaters for 800 hours then dissappear off. They have thier local comfort zone and it's rare they go outside it.
The subjects are contained in the theory. But its been a bit of a spiral for the last few years. I would say its a failing of the instructors, instructor,instructor....... The instructor proberly never got taught it was important in their PPL and the FIC tends to be very instructor dependent some folk get striaght and level battered to death and others circuits. So you tend to know what ever the favorite is of your instructor.
There is virtually no national standardisation of acceptable methods. Each school has there own prefered practise and what one schools views as good airmanship another will think is bad airmanship requiring retraining.
The regional bit comes in because the emphasis on what is the important stuff is regionally dictated. What we considered important up north would be considered worth a mention in passing down south.
And the experence or lack of breadth of experence also dictates what is covered in depth or as a passing comment. What I now consider important has changed from what I used to think was important 3000 hours ago when I instructed PPL and was flying in my local comfort zone.
To be honest I don't have a clue how to lean a piston engine properly, by the time I read about it on here and realised all the myths and instructions I had been told in the past were utter bollocks I was flying turbines. But before I knew any better, and in good faith, I had continued these myths which I had been told.
Instructors in the UK will tend to stay static once working so they will arrive with 230 hours and then stay in the same area flying 2-4 seaters for 800 hours then dissappear off. They have thier local comfort zone and it's rare they go outside it.
The subjects are contained in the theory. But its been a bit of a spiral for the last few years. I would say its a failing of the instructors, instructor,instructor....... The instructor proberly never got taught it was important in their PPL and the FIC tends to be very instructor dependent some folk get striaght and level battered to death and others circuits. So you tend to know what ever the favorite is of your instructor.
There is virtually no national standardisation of acceptable methods. Each school has there own prefered practise and what one schools views as good airmanship another will think is bad airmanship requiring retraining.
The regional bit comes in because the emphasis on what is the important stuff is regionally dictated. What we considered important up north would be considered worth a mention in passing down south.
And the experence or lack of breadth of experence also dictates what is covered in depth or as a passing comment. What I now consider important has changed from what I used to think was important 3000 hours ago when I instructed PPL and was flying in my local comfort zone.
To be honest I don't have a clue how to lean a piston engine properly, by the time I read about it on here and realised all the myths and instructions I had been told in the past were utter bollocks I was flying turbines. But before I knew any better, and in good faith, I had continued these myths which I had been told.
Ascending wave can let you save on gas if it doesn't take you too far out of your way.
Remember that the wind forces air to ascend going over the mountain like water flowing over a rock, then it descends, then it ascends into the primary wave and comes down again and repeats with secondary and tertiary waves etc. until the air settles down.
So if you're in descending wave, there's ascending wave in either direction but heading towards the mountain/ridge will likely take you through the rotor and some major turbulence; so, heading downstream will be easier on you, your pax and the airframe.
Glider pilots learn quickly that if in sink, get out of it. Think 90 degree turn. Not a bad idea for power pilots, especially if it's wave. When in lift, keep an eye out for gliders.
Remember that the wind forces air to ascend going over the mountain like water flowing over a rock, then it descends, then it ascends into the primary wave and comes down again and repeats with secondary and tertiary waves etc. until the air settles down.
So if you're in descending wave, there's ascending wave in either direction but heading towards the mountain/ridge will likely take you through the rotor and some major turbulence; so, heading downstream will be easier on you, your pax and the airframe.
Glider pilots learn quickly that if in sink, get out of it. Think 90 degree turn. Not a bad idea for power pilots, especially if it's wave. When in lift, keep an eye out for gliders.
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It's a similiar problem in the US, unfortunately. I like to call it the heritage of inexperience. It's not entirely the fault of the instructor, in that one low time pilot becomes a low time instructor, and then teaches another pilot, who becomes an instructor...each one knows only what he's been told. Myths creep in, misunderstandings...often as not things are done only on the assumption that it must be right because so-and-so said so.
It's not just contained to primary training, either. I've run into pilots who swear this airplane or that handles this way or that...because that's what they were told, and that's what they saw in the simulator. Never mind that the simulator was set up in a particular fashion to dramatize a principle or behavior in a manner that's larger than life...they know only what they've been told.
That's really part of the refreshing view here. Posters here, hopefully representative of the majority out there, tend to question what they're told. This is a healthy thing. People who ask questions, think for themselves, search out answers...these are pilots who have a future. Pilots who believe everything they're told without looking beyond the mark are asking for trouble.
The internet harbors a lot of half-truth, too. However, it's a fantastic tool where people who would never meet in this lifetime can encounter one another to share thoughts, ideas, and exchange information in ways that was unheard of, not so long ago. Kudos to those who take the time to participate and learn, including the original poster of this thread.
It's not just contained to primary training, either. I've run into pilots who swear this airplane or that handles this way or that...because that's what they were told, and that's what they saw in the simulator. Never mind that the simulator was set up in a particular fashion to dramatize a principle or behavior in a manner that's larger than life...they know only what they've been told.
That's really part of the refreshing view here. Posters here, hopefully representative of the majority out there, tend to question what they're told. This is a healthy thing. People who ask questions, think for themselves, search out answers...these are pilots who have a future. Pilots who believe everything they're told without looking beyond the mark are asking for trouble.
The internet harbors a lot of half-truth, too. However, it's a fantastic tool where people who would never meet in this lifetime can encounter one another to share thoughts, ideas, and exchange information in ways that was unheard of, not so long ago. Kudos to those who take the time to participate and learn, including the original poster of this thread.