postings about accidents
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postings about accidents
It never seems to stop.....
Somebody gets killed in a crash, somebody else posts it and then the secodary (PPRuNe) problems starts.....
Some people come to post their condolances, others are curious about the know facts, many of us voice an opinion.
These opinions will vary from cautions ones to the ones who have obviously been angered by another loss, and this results in sometimes insensitive comments.
Then another discussion emerges about whether or not voicing opinions should be allowed or not, in which invariably those who knew him find it distasteful, and others remind us that we can learn from this speculation, not in the least because the AAIB reports often take a year to emerge and many never end up reading them, or if they do, the adrenalin of the recent loss of life is lost and the impact of the report is minimalised..
I learn from reading opinions on this website, along with the facts that sometimes emerge to clarify the accident, such as local MET info.
I wish people would be careful on HOW they post their opinions (being sensitive), but I'd like them to continue posting them, both facts and opinions, to reduce the need for soiling threads with discussions about whether or not these postings should be allowed
Puling threads is in my opinion wrong. Much better would be a PM from a moderator to an insensitive poster to edit his thread, and if he refuses to pull the posting rather than the thread
Freedom of speech
Somebody gets killed in a crash, somebody else posts it and then the secodary (PPRuNe) problems starts.....
Some people come to post their condolances, others are curious about the know facts, many of us voice an opinion.
These opinions will vary from cautions ones to the ones who have obviously been angered by another loss, and this results in sometimes insensitive comments.
Then another discussion emerges about whether or not voicing opinions should be allowed or not, in which invariably those who knew him find it distasteful, and others remind us that we can learn from this speculation, not in the least because the AAIB reports often take a year to emerge and many never end up reading them, or if they do, the adrenalin of the recent loss of life is lost and the impact of the report is minimalised..
I learn from reading opinions on this website, along with the facts that sometimes emerge to clarify the accident, such as local MET info.
I wish people would be careful on HOW they post their opinions (being sensitive), but I'd like them to continue posting them, both facts and opinions, to reduce the need for soiling threads with discussions about whether or not these postings should be allowed
Puling threads is in my opinion wrong. Much better would be a PM from a moderator to an insensitive poster to edit his thread, and if he refuses to pull the posting rather than the thread
Freedom of speech
I take your point, but in this case there doesn't seem to have been a freedom of speech issue - the original poster (not a mod) pulled the thread themselves. And I can quite understand why. 
The main issue is that, under such circumstances, bose sorry, "people" should self-censor to avoid his/their usual crass and insensitive comments if they are able.
If an inappropriate comment or unintended interpretation does slip through, then they should reflect that anybody who complains may be understandably emotional after the loss of a friend (or even relative).
They might not then immediately react with the Nuclear option, as is their wont.
The main issue is that, under such circumstances, bose sorry, "people" should self-censor to avoid his/their usual crass and insensitive comments if they are able.
If an inappropriate comment or unintended interpretation does slip through, then they should reflect that anybody who complains may be understandably emotional after the loss of a friend (or even relative).
They might not then immediately react with the Nuclear option, as is their wont.
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I am aware in this case the poster pulled the thread, he came back later to explain.
He is understandably upset and is a new member. I welcome him with open arms and in due course he will learn the (hard but fast and informative) ways of this forum.
Recently a thread was pulled on another issue. I am not attacking the moderators, I think Paul and friends do a good job. Just I d like them to remove posts rather than close a thread.
And at the same time I want us posters to be more sensitive. Bose has changed his tone recently, I am glad because i value his opinion too, but not always his tone
We re improving, lets continue doing that!
He is understandably upset and is a new member. I welcome him with open arms and in due course he will learn the (hard but fast and informative) ways of this forum.
Recently a thread was pulled on another issue. I am not attacking the moderators, I think Paul and friends do a good job. Just I d like them to remove posts rather than close a thread.
And at the same time I want us posters to be more sensitive. Bose has changed his tone recently, I am glad because i value his opinion too, but not always his tone
We re improving, lets continue doing that!
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The main issue is that, under such circumstances, bose sorry, "people" should self-censor to avoid his/their usual crass and insensitive comments if they are able.
I merely questioned the wisdom of a low hours pilot flying at night in marginal weather in a high performance aircraft. A comment agreed with by even those who normally disagree with me.
Well, the thread's not there now for me to point to, is it? Handy.
However, those who read your invitation to a clearly upset poster to "step outside" will be able to draw their own conclusions.
A significant proportion of the flame wars on this forum begin with a common denominator - you might wish to pnder on who that might be.
However, those who read your invitation to a clearly upset poster to "step outside" will be able to draw their own conclusions.
A significant proportion of the flame wars on this forum begin with a common denominator - you might wish to pnder on who that might be.
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However, those who read your invitation to a clearly upset poster to "step outside" will be able to draw their own conclusions.
And I have still to work out what upset the poster that wanted to do me over was actually upset about as I made no contentious or disparaging comments!!! I just asked a question about the wisdom of something.....
Bose-x,
I read the post that was deleted and there was no threat to " do you over" as you suggest. Yes the poster was upset at you , possibly because so many of your remarks are contentious. Many show real arrogance.
Pontious the Pilot you are not - you need reminding of this sometimes, particularly recently with regard to recent tragic accidents.
Dont like it ? - "have a go at me behind the bike sheds" if you like , I will PM you my address
I read the post that was deleted and there was no threat to " do you over" as you suggest. Yes the poster was upset at you , possibly because so many of your remarks are contentious. Many show real arrogance.
Pontious the Pilot you are not - you need reminding of this sometimes, particularly recently with regard to recent tragic accidents.
Dont like it ? - "have a go at me behind the bike sheds" if you like , I will PM you my address
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Oh god..... 
The poster who you are referring to made it clear that it was a good job he had photographs of PPRUNers and if I ever showed my face in his area he would do me over. I still have no idea what my 'contentious' remark was!
I merely responded that if he felt the urge to do so we could pop behind the bike sheds. I assume you now are feeling the urge to take a person you have never met from an anonymous forum and prove your masculinity behind the bike sheds? What are we going to do back there see who has the biggest dick?
But you know what, I don't really give a toss what you think.
The poster who you are referring to made it clear that it was a good job he had photographs of PPRUNers and if I ever showed my face in his area he would do me over. I still have no idea what my 'contentious' remark was!
I merely responded that if he felt the urge to do so we could pop behind the bike sheds. I assume you now are feeling the urge to take a person you have never met from an anonymous forum and prove your masculinity behind the bike sheds? What are we going to do back there see who has the biggest dick?
But you know what, I don't really give a toss what you think.
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I wish people would be careful on HOW they post their opinions (being sensitive), but I'd like them to continue posting them, both facts and opinions, to reduce the need for soiling threads with discussions about whether or not these postings should be allowed
As for the "behind the sheds" postings - I originally it was just a joke and the individuals concerned were just playing around. Apparently not!
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As for the "behind the sheds" postings - I originally it was just a joke and the individuals concerned were just playing around. Apparently not!
Ho hum, I shan't lose any sleep!
Oh, bose - butter wouldn't melt, would it? 
As I say, the people who read the original can draw their own conclusions.
If you really were "attempting humour" - which I seriously doubt, having followed your contributions for some time - you seriously ought to step back and consider cause and effect.
Many's the time that you "attempt humour" here and you upset people. Ever thought, that - just possibly - the problem might not be with them?
Even if you really were "attempting humour", ever thought that - just possibly - a thread on which grieving people post less than 24 hours after learning of their loss might not be the place for "banter" with those same grieving people?
As I say, the people who read the original can draw their own conclusions.
If you really were "attempting humour" - which I seriously doubt, having followed your contributions for some time - you seriously ought to step back and consider cause and effect.
Many's the time that you "attempt humour" here and you upset people. Ever thought, that - just possibly - the problem might not be with them?
Even if you really were "attempting humour", ever thought that - just possibly - a thread on which grieving people post less than 24 hours after learning of their loss might not be the place for "banter" with those same grieving people?
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Good grief, this is getting ridiculous !
First of all, most of us are here to learn about flying. Sometimes this involves learning through the mistakes of others. For those who can't handle the facts: the vast majority (>90%) of aviation accidents/incidents are caused by human error, one way or another. There is a saying that is unfortunately pretty close to the truth: every rule in aviation is written with the blood of someone. Therefore, any discussion of accidents will almost invariably involve some debate about the human factors involved. For those who find this objectionable, there is a simple answer - don't read Pprune, nobody forces you.
I personally am getting sick and tired of the 'RIP', 'condolences', etc brigade who clutter the discussion here. While I can understand the emotion in some instances (ref. the recent Norfolk accident and the SR22), the calls 'wait for the AAIB report' are nonsense. Speculating means thinking about potential causes and that is what keeps us - hopefully - alive and out of trouble up there. Reading a carefully worded report a year or more hence does not.
Finally, should I ever do something really stupid in an a/c that results in my demise, feel free to speculate to your hearts' delight and call me whatever you feel like - if ONE accident is prevented by doing so, it's all worth it.
rant over
!First of all, most of us are here to learn about flying. Sometimes this involves learning through the mistakes of others. For those who can't handle the facts: the vast majority (>90%) of aviation accidents/incidents are caused by human error, one way or another. There is a saying that is unfortunately pretty close to the truth: every rule in aviation is written with the blood of someone. Therefore, any discussion of accidents will almost invariably involve some debate about the human factors involved. For those who find this objectionable, there is a simple answer - don't read Pprune, nobody forces you.
I personally am getting sick and tired of the 'RIP', 'condolences', etc brigade who clutter the discussion here. While I can understand the emotion in some instances (ref. the recent Norfolk accident and the SR22), the calls 'wait for the AAIB report' are nonsense. Speculating means thinking about potential causes and that is what keeps us - hopefully - alive and out of trouble up there. Reading a carefully worded report a year or more hence does not.
Finally, should I ever do something really stupid in an a/c that results in my demise, feel free to speculate to your hearts' delight and call me whatever you feel like - if ONE accident is prevented by doing so, it's all worth it.
rant over
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Oh, bose - butter wouldn't melt, would it?
As I say, the people who read the original can draw their own conclusions.
If you really were "attempting humour" - which I seriously doubt, having followed your contributions for some time - you seriously ought to step back and consider cause and effect.
Many's the time that you "attempt humour" here and you upset people. Ever thought, that - just possibly - the problem might not be with them?
Even if you really were "attempting humour", ever thought that - just possibly - a thread on which grieving people post less than 24 hours after learning of their loss might not be the place for "banter" with those same grieving people?
As I say, the people who read the original can draw their own conclusions.
If you really were "attempting humour" - which I seriously doubt, having followed your contributions for some time - you seriously ought to step back and consider cause and effect.
Many's the time that you "attempt humour" here and you upset people. Ever thought, that - just possibly - the problem might not be with them?
Even if you really were "attempting humour", ever thought that - just possibly - a thread on which grieving people post less than 24 hours after learning of their loss might not be the place for "banter" with those same grieving people?
If you can't stand the heat go and stand in the coal shed. (not to be confused with an invite for you to come behind the bike sheds with me).
BossEyed and barcli certainly seem to have a distorted memory of that thread.
FWIW, it wasn't Bose who started with the threats. He was just responding to the comment from the poster who said something along the lines of 'it's a good thing that there are photos on pprune because if bose ever comes around here...". The threat of violence (although not actually stated), was very much implied.
FWIW, it wasn't Bose who started with the threats. He was just responding to the comment from the poster who said something along the lines of 'it's a good thing that there are photos on pprune because if bose ever comes around here...". The threat of violence (although not actually stated), was very much implied.
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I take your point, but in this case there doesn't seem to have been a freedom of speech issue - the original poster (not a mod) pulled the thread themselves. And I can quite understand why
No doubt there was the usual collection of tossers posting insensitive comments. Some times people on this forum are total wankers (there I said it). Happily posting things that would earn them a punch on the nose if they said it in real life, in the club bar. The depths that some people have dropped to in the past, speaking extremely ill of the very recently deceased is a truly disgusting, subhuman thing to do.
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A good friend of mine died in his aircraft a few years back.
He died with his partner, who was also in the aircraft.
Every year since, I have flown a slow roll over his grave so I don’t forget. This was the last year - time to move on. I still miss him.
He had family, he had children, he had close friends.
He was a very good pilot.
I gave as much help to the AAIB investigator as I was able. They were unable to establish the cause of the accident.
His family read PpruNe. They read PpruNe every day for a week.
They understood our desire to discuss what went wrong.
They took solace from the thought that another pilot might take away a lesson from the discussion that could save his or her life.
They were distraught by the ill informed speculation about the pilot’s competence.
They asked how people could question his handling of the events of that day when they had no idea what happened.
They wondered how we could be so needlessly incentive about a fellow pilot.
It is for that reason I believe we should restrict discussion about accidents to demonstrable issue or factors.
We may question whether a pilot was adequately trained, experienced or qualified for the flight, but unless we know what training, experience or qualifications he had, we might do as well to keep those thoughts to ourselves.
Lest we forget, the best pilots make mistakes - we each dance on the head of that pin - hopefully with experience we just make fewer mistakes.
The trouble is in our world it need only take one mistake.
He died with his partner, who was also in the aircraft.
Every year since, I have flown a slow roll over his grave so I don’t forget. This was the last year - time to move on. I still miss him.
He had family, he had children, he had close friends.
He was a very good pilot.
I gave as much help to the AAIB investigator as I was able. They were unable to establish the cause of the accident.
His family read PpruNe. They read PpruNe every day for a week.
They understood our desire to discuss what went wrong.
They took solace from the thought that another pilot might take away a lesson from the discussion that could save his or her life.
They were distraught by the ill informed speculation about the pilot’s competence.
They asked how people could question his handling of the events of that day when they had no idea what happened.
They wondered how we could be so needlessly incentive about a fellow pilot.
It is for that reason I believe we should restrict discussion about accidents to demonstrable issue or factors.
We may question whether a pilot was adequately trained, experienced or qualified for the flight, but unless we know what training, experience or qualifications he had, we might do as well to keep those thoughts to ourselves.
Lest we forget, the best pilots make mistakes - we each dance on the head of that pin - hopefully with experience we just make fewer mistakes.
The trouble is in our world it need only take one mistake.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 19th Nov 2008 at 07:52.
Whilst postings should be sensitive and considered regarding accidents and similar issues e.g. libel, it's probably worth reminding ourselves that theres no 'Freedom of Speech' on any internet forum.
The final arbiter will always be the board owner, regardless of whether you've complied with forum rules regulations or ettiquette. If you want Freedom of Speech, you have to own your own bulletin board or forum, it's that simple. I make this comment as I see similar 'FOS' comments and censorship/rights demands and cries on those too, many forget that they do not in fact have any 'rights' to post their comments or feelings at all, they are however 'permitted' to.
The final arbiter will always be the board owner, regardless of whether you've complied with forum rules regulations or ettiquette. If you want Freedom of Speech, you have to own your own bulletin board or forum, it's that simple. I make this comment as I see similar 'FOS' comments and censorship/rights demands and cries on those too, many forget that they do not in fact have any 'rights' to post their comments or feelings at all, they are however 'permitted' to.
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Fuji
We had a long thread on this before so here we go again
I too have lost good friends and it is a risk we all carry that aviation is an unforgiving mistress.
Firstly I do not believe that "close" relatives are glued to what is said in pprune. I very much doubt they even look in here.
The second point which was made in the previous long thread is that Pilots are more likely to take in lessons when the tragic event is fresh in their minds not a year later when the dust has settled and an AAIB report is hardly given a look.
Most who post do not know the pilot so he might as well be called pilot X and it is quite in order to talk about pilot X scenarios as while the people who post may be well off track on their specualtion there are valuable lessons that can be learnt.
Flying is all about risk management and some of us dont manage those risks as well as we should. 99 out of 100 times we will get away with it but the 100th time our mistress will bite and we end up as an accident statistic.
To fly over water at dusk or night will reduce the chances of survival in the event of an engine failure. Flying a single over heavy seas or poor vis and low cloud also increases that risk factor until it becomes a game of russian roulette.
Of course its dreadful when one of our fraternity is killed doing what we do. It brings home the awful consequences that could befall any of us and there for the grace of God go we.
So any discussion which may result in one PPL thinking a bit and avoiding a simular accident has to be good.
We are a pilot forum and that has to be the guiding principal. If you are a relative who is not aviation minded then maybe you should not be here.
If you are a pilot then through all the heated arguements maybe there may be a lesson which will make us more cautious and thus reduce the risk of something simular happening to another one of us.
Pace
We had a long thread on this before so here we go again
I too have lost good friends and it is a risk we all carry that aviation is an unforgiving mistress.
Firstly I do not believe that "close" relatives are glued to what is said in pprune. I very much doubt they even look in here.
The second point which was made in the previous long thread is that Pilots are more likely to take in lessons when the tragic event is fresh in their minds not a year later when the dust has settled and an AAIB report is hardly given a look.
Most who post do not know the pilot so he might as well be called pilot X and it is quite in order to talk about pilot X scenarios as while the people who post may be well off track on their specualtion there are valuable lessons that can be learnt.
Flying is all about risk management and some of us dont manage those risks as well as we should. 99 out of 100 times we will get away with it but the 100th time our mistress will bite and we end up as an accident statistic.
To fly over water at dusk or night will reduce the chances of survival in the event of an engine failure. Flying a single over heavy seas or poor vis and low cloud also increases that risk factor until it becomes a game of russian roulette.
Of course its dreadful when one of our fraternity is killed doing what we do. It brings home the awful consequences that could befall any of us and there for the grace of God go we.
So any discussion which may result in one PPL thinking a bit and avoiding a simular accident has to be good.
We are a pilot forum and that has to be the guiding principal. If you are a relative who is not aviation minded then maybe you should not be here.
If you are a pilot then through all the heated arguements maybe there may be a lesson which will make us more cautious and thus reduce the risk of something simular happening to another one of us.
Pace