PPL (A) With (IR)
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Thanks so far guys! Maybe i should have been a little clearer.
Within the next 18 months or so i will be buying a new aircraft. either a brand new:
-Piper meridian
-TBM 850 (not new)
Or any other fast single.
with this i would like to tour europ. now do you think the IR is a good idea?
regards
eugegall is offline Report Post Reply
Within the next 18 months or so i will be buying a new aircraft. either a brand new:
-Piper meridian
-TBM 850 (not new)
Or any other fast single.
with this i would like to tour europ. now do you think the IR is a good idea?
regards
eugegall is offline Report Post Reply
It involves 7 exams (as opposed to ATPL 14) and circa 55 hours flight training, much of which can be done in a FNPT 2 simulator.
If you're keen enough you can go to CAA/FCL website and get the full details yourself...
Cusco
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To actally answer the question, it is quite an involved process.
There are I think 7 exams. It will probably take at least 3-4 months of quite intense study to complete part time, with a couple of weeks full time before the exams. Last I heard GTS in Bournemouth was a very good company to guide you through that process. Then there is a 55-hour flying course. I would actually recommend that you complete the MEP first (6 hours and a test in a multi) and fly the IR in a twin. With the resources I presume you have then at some point you might decide that a twin is more appropriate to your needs, and an MEIR is valid on a single or a multi.
IO540 is being pesimistic. With an IR, if you keep in practice, you will find that in Europe you will get in more than 95% of the time into airfields with published instrument approaches. Also a great help to get into a visual-only airfield in marginal conditions to have another plan.
There are I think 7 exams. It will probably take at least 3-4 months of quite intense study to complete part time, with a couple of weeks full time before the exams. Last I heard GTS in Bournemouth was a very good company to guide you through that process. Then there is a 55-hour flying course. I would actually recommend that you complete the MEP first (6 hours and a test in a multi) and fly the IR in a twin. With the resources I presume you have then at some point you might decide that a twin is more appropriate to your needs, and an MEIR is valid on a single or a multi.
IO540 is being pesimistic. With an IR, if you keep in practice, you will find that in Europe you will get in more than 95% of the time into airfields with published instrument approaches. Also a great help to get into a visual-only airfield in marginal conditions to have another plan.
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I've always been told that if you decide to either do the IR or the CPL, you might as well bite the bullet and do all the ATPL theory exams.
The ATPL theory exams cover just about everything mankind knows about fixed wing flight. IR theory, CPL theory but also things like high-performance, high-altitude, turbine operations and a few other bits and pieces that you might need to operate aircraft such as a Piper Meridian or TBM850.
So with your ATPL theory in your pocket there's only a few scenarios in which you would need to do another theory exam ever again. (Switching to rotary would be the only one I could think of, or getting a typerating.) But with just IR theory in your pocket you'll probably find that in a few years time you're going to do something which requires you to hit the books again. And again for something else a few years after that.
The cost difference between an IR course and exams vs. an ATPL course and exams is negligible if you're thinking about buying a second-hand TBM850. Question is: do you want to invest the additional time?
The ATPL theory exams cover just about everything mankind knows about fixed wing flight. IR theory, CPL theory but also things like high-performance, high-altitude, turbine operations and a few other bits and pieces that you might need to operate aircraft such as a Piper Meridian or TBM850.
So with your ATPL theory in your pocket there's only a few scenarios in which you would need to do another theory exam ever again. (Switching to rotary would be the only one I could think of, or getting a typerating.) But with just IR theory in your pocket you'll probably find that in a few years time you're going to do something which requires you to hit the books again. And again for something else a few years after that.
The cost difference between an IR course and exams vs. an ATPL course and exams is negligible if you're thinking about buying a second-hand TBM850. Question is: do you want to invest the additional time?
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If you read eugegall's post again you'll see he has no wish to be an airline pilot or instructor so what's the point of encouraging him to do the ATPLs, or even CPL for that matter.
Maybe he just wants to be a PPL/IR.
You can do the 7 IR exams in four months: (I did - some have done it in less) by distance learning with 'brush up ' groundschool days at weekends if you choose the right establishment.................
That's what I and a large number of fellow PPLs have done over the last 10 months.
Can't comment on the twin versus single notion and as eugegalls seems 'comfortable' then the significant extra expense of an IR in a twin won't be a problem.
I don't propose to get embroiled in the 'do the IMC, you won't regret it' or the 'go to USA and do the FAA/IR' arguments they've been done to death elsewhere.
Cusco
Maybe he just wants to be a PPL/IR.
You can do the 7 IR exams in four months: (I did - some have done it in less) by distance learning with 'brush up ' groundschool days at weekends if you choose the right establishment.................
That's what I and a large number of fellow PPLs have done over the last 10 months.
Can't comment on the twin versus single notion and as eugegalls seems 'comfortable' then the significant extra expense of an IR in a twin won't be a problem.
I don't propose to get embroiled in the 'do the IMC, you won't regret it' or the 'go to USA and do the FAA/IR' arguments they've been done to death elsewhere.
Cusco
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There are many factors that go into the go/no-go decision under IFR. I mentioned a few. But I think it would simply result in another interminable thread, trying to answer a question which was never posed.
There is a strategy for the JAA IR which is to revise a bit, sit all the 7 exams in one go (over a day or two), and then revise properly for those which one fails. However, this works only for experienced pilots who already know about flying and IFR e.g. FAA IR holders. A totally ab initio pilot is going to have to swat for months and months, and anyway he will have the mandatory classroom attendance.
This is why the FAA IR / N-reg route is attractive. Many many pilots have followed this. You start with a UK PPL, IMC Rating, buy a plane, do a lot of IFR flying and get good, then go to the USA and do the FAA IR (and a standalone FAA PPL) in something like 2 weeks and 20-25hrs of flying under the hood.
Advantages of this route is that you can do the IMCR at the same old school near to where you live, and you get immediate (UK only) IFR rights which allow you to fly IFR, and to fly VMC on top into Europe (a key privilege for practical VFR touring). And when you do the FAA IR you get full credit for all IMCR training.
Whereas the JAA IR gives you zero credit for any previous training - unless you have an ICAO (e.g. FAA) IR in which case the 50/55 hrs min flying time reduces to 15hrs and the mandatory classroom attendance goes away.
The current EASA cage-rattling makes the FAA route more uncertain but as an overall route to the JAA IR it remains completely valid, due to the massive training credits
- IMCR training counts towards the FAA IR, and
- the FAA IR reduces the JAA IR min training time from 50/55 (SE/ME) to 15hrs
- the mandatory classroom on the JAA IR is eliminated
and obviously one would move to the JAA IR only when (if) EASA really is going to shaft foreign licensed pilots. The earliest likely date seems to be 2012.
The downside of the FAA route is that an N-reg plane is needed to get the worldwide IFR privileges. This has advantages though, in various respects.
Training in the USA is also much cheaper. My IR over there cost me about $3000, for ~ 25hrs. Plus another $1500 for the motel and flights. Considering the JAA IR gives no credit for any previous training, if you did the 50/55 hrs here (can't do it in the USA) it would cost a huge pile more.
Just another perspective....
There is a strategy for the JAA IR which is to revise a bit, sit all the 7 exams in one go (over a day or two), and then revise properly for those which one fails. However, this works only for experienced pilots who already know about flying and IFR e.g. FAA IR holders. A totally ab initio pilot is going to have to swat for months and months, and anyway he will have the mandatory classroom attendance.
This is why the FAA IR / N-reg route is attractive. Many many pilots have followed this. You start with a UK PPL, IMC Rating, buy a plane, do a lot of IFR flying and get good, then go to the USA and do the FAA IR (and a standalone FAA PPL) in something like 2 weeks and 20-25hrs of flying under the hood.
Advantages of this route is that you can do the IMCR at the same old school near to where you live, and you get immediate (UK only) IFR rights which allow you to fly IFR, and to fly VMC on top into Europe (a key privilege for practical VFR touring). And when you do the FAA IR you get full credit for all IMCR training.
Whereas the JAA IR gives you zero credit for any previous training - unless you have an ICAO (e.g. FAA) IR in which case the 50/55 hrs min flying time reduces to 15hrs and the mandatory classroom attendance goes away.
The current EASA cage-rattling makes the FAA route more uncertain but as an overall route to the JAA IR it remains completely valid, due to the massive training credits
- IMCR training counts towards the FAA IR, and
- the FAA IR reduces the JAA IR min training time from 50/55 (SE/ME) to 15hrs
- the mandatory classroom on the JAA IR is eliminated
and obviously one would move to the JAA IR only when (if) EASA really is going to shaft foreign licensed pilots. The earliest likely date seems to be 2012.
The downside of the FAA route is that an N-reg plane is needed to get the worldwide IFR privileges. This has advantages though, in various respects.
Training in the USA is also much cheaper. My IR over there cost me about $3000, for ~ 25hrs. Plus another $1500 for the motel and flights. Considering the JAA IR gives no credit for any previous training, if you did the 50/55 hrs here (can't do it in the USA) it would cost a huge pile more.
Just another perspective....
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My advice for what it's worth is based on what I did.
Do the FAA/IR
Buy an N-reg aircraft
Believe me, instrument flying in IMC is far from boring.
Perhaps I'm unlucky but all clouds except the most wispy stratus ones tend to be unhappy to have light aircraft flying around inside them.
I would agree that it is both the most demanding and most rewarding flying you will ever do. Once you have your IR your self discipline will be regularly tested and you will learn about icing, turbulence and CB avoidance pretty quickly.
You need the right aircraft with the right equipment though if you really want to use the rating.
SB
Do the FAA/IR
Buy an N-reg aircraft
Believe me, instrument flying in IMC is far from boring.
Perhaps I'm unlucky but all clouds except the most wispy stratus ones tend to be unhappy to have light aircraft flying around inside them.
I would agree that it is both the most demanding and most rewarding flying you will ever do. Once you have your IR your self discipline will be regularly tested and you will learn about icing, turbulence and CB avoidance pretty quickly.
You need the right aircraft with the right equipment though if you really want to use the rating.
SB
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I am surprised that someone who already owns their own aircraft with your ambition and resources asks such a question here
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Don't know.... he might have just spent his whole time hanging around flying schools. They are hardly fountains of knowledge on the wide world of aviation, and often you are fed bull by self interested people who want you to rent their wreckage instead. I started looking for a plane even before I finished my PPL and you would not believe the amount of bull I was told. Real pilots who fly to real places rarely hang around schools because the school doesn't want them polluting their students' knowledge 
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Guys im not here to waste anyones time and if i was there would be no point. I'm for real,
I have decided to go to florida in JAN and and get the FAA IR. when i get the Piper meridian then ill just make sure its on the N-REG. if its not then ill convert by doing the 7 exams and 15 hours worth of flying...
Your right i do spend quite alot of time at flying clubs. infact as im self employed i get there loads! I enjoy being around it.
There is no crime there
thanks
I have decided to go to florida in JAN and and get the FAA IR. when i get the Piper meridian then ill just make sure its on the N-REG. if its not then ill convert by doing the 7 exams and 15 hours worth of flying...
Your right i do spend quite alot of time at flying clubs. infact as im self employed i get there loads! I enjoy being around it.
There is no crime there
thanks
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The Meridian is a nice plane, but also consider the Jetprop. This is 1999kg and thus considerably cheaper to fly IFR around Europe. Almost the same airframe.
You will have a lot of mission capability with a piece of hardware like this. Most people here would envy you
Just make sure you get LOADS of type specific training. With modern avionics, these are seriously complex machines and it is pointless getting one unless you understand it.
You will have a lot of mission capability with a piece of hardware like this. Most people here would envy you
Just make sure you get LOADS of type specific training. With modern avionics, these are seriously complex machines and it is pointless getting one unless you understand it.
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Some of the poster son here make the ground school sound daunting, its not.
The complete course will take you some time but it is doable at weekends and does not require weeks of full time study.
I know of a good few people who signed up in Jan and took exams in April and June (the exams are on a Monday and Tuesday and only take place every two months). The revision for most was minimal and mostly involved the cardinal sin of learning the question bank.
The flying trianing can be done at weekends, althouh this will drag it out a bit and for an SEP you only require 50 hours (not the 55 quoted above) or which 20 can be in an FNPTI and (I think) 25 in an FNPTII, athough imo after about 15-20 hours you will get limited benefit from a sim..
The complete course will take you some time but it is doable at weekends and does not require weeks of full time study.
I know of a good few people who signed up in Jan and took exams in April and June (the exams are on a Monday and Tuesday and only take place every two months). The revision for most was minimal and mostly involved the cardinal sin of learning the question bank.
The flying trianing can be done at weekends, althouh this will drag it out a bit and for an SEP you only require 50 hours (not the 55 quoted above) or which 20 can be in an FNPTI and (I think) 25 in an FNPTII, athough imo after about 15-20 hours you will get limited benefit from a sim..
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The complete course will take you some time but it is doable at weekends and does not require weeks of full time study.
Obviously converting a FAA IR to a JAA IR, experienced IFR pilots, is a lot less work.
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You did well - congratulations. I know some very sharp people like that too but they are not common. Most people take a lot longer.
There is a slightly reduced theory coming in, due late 2009. The reference is a page on the CAA website somewhere. This was worked out 1-2 years ago (took several years to get there, I gather) but then it got delayed due to some technicality over the study material provision or something like that.
There is a slightly reduced theory coming in, due late 2009. The reference is a page on the CAA website somewhere. This was worked out 1-2 years ago (took several years to get there, I gather) but then it got delayed due to some technicality over the study material provision or something like that.
Upto The Buffers
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The theory is a pain, but it's nowhere near as bad as many make out. It took me just under 6 months from start to finish, and that wasn't just IR, I did doing the CPL exams in the alternate months.
The IR is 7 exams. IFR comms needs absolutely no revision whatsoever and is a joke. Flight Planning requires little or no revision as all the info you need is there in the exam in the form of CAPs and your route manual. Essentially effort is only required for 5 exams. Most of it is drivel that is absolutely no use in the context of safely operating an aeroplane but some of it, particularly Met, is useful learning.
The main irritation for me was the fact that you have to go to Gatwick for them. This means adding return flights and a hotel into the deal. Plus the CAA exam department are atrocious at sending out paperwork on time, then take weeks to send out the results to candidates. Considering the cost is north of £60 per exam, I really think we deserve better in the 21st century.
The IR is 7 exams. IFR comms needs absolutely no revision whatsoever and is a joke. Flight Planning requires little or no revision as all the info you need is there in the exam in the form of CAPs and your route manual. Essentially effort is only required for 5 exams. Most of it is drivel that is absolutely no use in the context of safely operating an aeroplane but some of it, particularly Met, is useful learning.
The main irritation for me was the fact that you have to go to Gatwick for them. This means adding return flights and a hotel into the deal. Plus the CAA exam department are atrocious at sending out paperwork on time, then take weeks to send out the results to candidates. Considering the cost is north of £60 per exam, I really think we deserve better in the 21st century.
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You often read comments of the gold plating CAA making the IR unachieveable to the average PPL - I'd just like to say that it is definitely acheiveable, the only real problem is that the 'gold plating' has added is to the cost - if you can afford it then it is doable.
In relation to the work that is required:
7 exams all taken at Gatwick on two days every two months, the same exams on the same days, they are multiple guess and are pretty easy. A lot of the stuff you will already know from your PPL but a fair amount is new, but nothing very onerous. Other than for MET I put minimal effort in reading the manuals nut mainly working through the question banks and when I say minimal I mean about 1 day per exam (plus 20 hours compulsory Ground School for all 7 subjects). So at a guestimate I spent about 10 days total (actaully that sound like too much) preping for the exams and 2 days taking them.
First exam was April and last in June.
You can start the flying training before you have had your results, but I decided to wait and started training in late july and had my 170a in mid October - other than the 170 all of my flying and SIM work up to the 170 took place at weekends (on 18 separate days).
After the 170a I had two more flights at weekends for brush up and practice while waiting for teh exam which was on a Wednesday.
No suprises in the flying or sim and nothing that a reasonably competent PPL could not handle.
All done in a single.
As I said, other than the cost it is very achievable. And as I fly for fun I have put it in my accounts as part of this years fun as I enjoyed every minute of it.
In relation to the work that is required:
7 exams all taken at Gatwick on two days every two months, the same exams on the same days, they are multiple guess and are pretty easy. A lot of the stuff you will already know from your PPL but a fair amount is new, but nothing very onerous. Other than for MET I put minimal effort in reading the manuals nut mainly working through the question banks and when I say minimal I mean about 1 day per exam (plus 20 hours compulsory Ground School for all 7 subjects). So at a guestimate I spent about 10 days total (actaully that sound like too much) preping for the exams and 2 days taking them.
First exam was April and last in June.
You can start the flying training before you have had your results, but I decided to wait and started training in late july and had my 170a in mid October - other than the 170 all of my flying and SIM work up to the 170 took place at weekends (on 18 separate days).
After the 170a I had two more flights at weekends for brush up and practice while waiting for teh exam which was on a Wednesday.
No suprises in the flying or sim and nothing that a reasonably competent PPL could not handle.
All done in a single.
As I said, other than the cost it is very achievable. And as I fly for fun I have put it in my accounts as part of this years fun as I enjoyed every minute of it.