Immigration Controls: General Aviation
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Immigration Controls: General Aviation
I little something on future changes to GA.
Full answer here:
Immigration Controls: Aviation: 21 Oct 2008: Written answers (TheyWorkForYou.com)
The UK Border Agency, working closely with the police, pursues an intelligence-led and risk-based approach to immigration control...
Immigration Controls: Aviation: 21 Oct 2008: Written answers (TheyWorkForYou.com)
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Age: 52
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is just a description of what happens now - rather than anything new being proposed.
The current system seems to work quite well. I've never been met by anyone on my return to the UK, but then I'm not up to anything that I shouldn't be.
I've seen other light aircraft met by customs / police on their return, so the authorities obviously know who they're looking for.
This is much the same as when you get a scheduled flight back into a big UK airport though. You virtually never see a customs official in the 'nothing to declare' channel. If someone on a flight was suspected of being up to no good though, I suspect that they would be 'randomly' selected for a baggage inspection.
The current system seems to work quite well. I've never been met by anyone on my return to the UK, but then I'm not up to anything that I shouldn't be.
I've seen other light aircraft met by customs / police on their return, so the authorities obviously know who they're looking for.
This is much the same as when you get a scheduled flight back into a big UK airport though. You virtually never see a customs official in the 'nothing to declare' channel. If someone on a flight was suspected of being up to no good though, I suspect that they would be 'randomly' selected for a baggage inspection.
Last edited by julian_storey; 22nd Oct 2008 at 13:45.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been a regular flyer out from Kemble, Blackbushe and White Waltham to CI and the continent. When I first started I was met occasionally and I believe that my pattern of activity is now well understood so I haven't seen anyone for a while.
The last time I was met, it was because there was no GAR. Ops at the airfield had failed to file it for me. The flight plan clearly got someone's attention but the guys who turned up were very polite and once they were sure I knew the score, wasn't taking the mick and just a victim of admin cock up, they toddled off content.
So I agree the system works very well and it behoves us all to play ball and keep vigilant for the bad guys.
The last time I was met, it was because there was no GAR. Ops at the airfield had failed to file it for me. The flight plan clearly got someone's attention but the guys who turned up were very polite and once they were sure I knew the score, wasn't taking the mick and just a victim of admin cock up, they toddled off content.
So I agree the system works very well and it behoves us all to play ball and keep vigilant for the bad guys.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I got one (long) "interview" a while ago because I didn't file the GAR, due to an error on the GAR form airport designations.
I got another interview, very polite this time round, the other day upon return from a country which has some very old terrorist history with IRA connections. They also asked questions about N-reg planes, allegedly not carrying the same documents as G-reg - suggesting that somebody fed them the usual anti-N-reg disinformation, so I showed them the large wad of documents which an N-reg owner has to carry.
The Plod (who are of course reading this) certainly are acting according to some kind of strategy. No problem with that.
I just wish they dragged themselves into the 20th century and set up a website for entering the GAR information
A week's work for any half smart web programmer, and for that they would get a user database so if doing a repeat flight you could just login and not have to enter all the stuff again. A website which is just a dump entry form (with maybe a fax retransmission on the back end) would be 1-2 days' work. I know just the man to set it up..
I got another interview, very polite this time round, the other day upon return from a country which has some very old terrorist history with IRA connections. They also asked questions about N-reg planes, allegedly not carrying the same documents as G-reg - suggesting that somebody fed them the usual anti-N-reg disinformation, so I showed them the large wad of documents which an N-reg owner has to carry.
The Plod (who are of course reading this) certainly are acting according to some kind of strategy. No problem with that.
I just wish they dragged themselves into the 20th century and set up a website for entering the GAR information
A week's work for any half smart web programmer, and for that they would get a user database so if doing a repeat flight you could just login and not have to enter all the stuff again. A website which is just a dump entry form (with maybe a fax retransmission on the back end) would be 1-2 days' work. I know just the man to set it up..
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Age: 52
Posts: 585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, that is a fantastic idea.
It could automatically transmit your details to the immigration people and if you needed Special Branch clearance, also to the right department at the right police force.
I wonder who one might suggest that to?
It could automatically transmit your details to the immigration people and if you needed Special Branch clearance, also to the right department at the right police force.
I wonder who one might suggest that to?
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: one dot low as usual
Age: 66
Posts: 537
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been met once on return from Lille. Quick peek at our passports and he was on his way (same pax in/out, all Anglo style names on the GAR form so guess just a spot check).
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are assuming some sort of joined up organisation here. The customs side might not be an issue but the Special Branch one is.
Who would own such a website and keep it updated? There is no central special branch organisation.
AOPA have tried to get this done many times over the years and it is still one of the special projects I have on my list. Now if every pilot who intended to use such a system were an AOPA member maybe AOPA could be persuaded to do the work and run the website.
Who would own such a website and keep it updated? There is no central special branch organisation.
AOPA have tried to get this done many times over the years and it is still one of the special projects I have on my list. Now if every pilot who intended to use such a system were an AOPA member maybe AOPA could be persuaded to do the work and run the website.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, that is a fantastic idea.
It could automatically transmit your details to the immigration people and if you needed Special Branch clearance, also to the right department at the right police force.
I wonder who one might suggest that to?
It could automatically transmit your details to the immigration people and if you needed Special Branch clearance, also to the right department at the right police force.
I wonder who one might suggest that to?
The real problem is liability. No third party is (understandably) going to touch this with a bargepole, commercially or otherwise, because if some GAR form (esp. re IOM/Ireland) fails to transmit (website fails, or the email2fax function fails) the sender could get arrested. I have failed to deliver GAR forms a few times because the fax # was duff, or the receiving machine was duff / out of paper, and if doing this with a website this failure would have to be communicated back to the sender, probably by SMS. Just like homebriefing.com sends you an SMS on flight plan accept/fail. Again, email2sms is straightforward but not free so a prepay is needed for that as well.
Unfortunately, the Plod never confirm receipt electronically. You get a phone call with a "permission number" (they like to pretend that you need a "permission"), and this can be any number of hours later. So, even an SMS saying the transaction succeeded would not mean the fax was actually delivered.
And I don't know of an email2fax service which offers an sms confirmation (would be a nice feature). Such a feature would solve this problem because the delivery of the ultimate fax would be confirmed directly back to the sender, on a mobile # specified at the time of the filing. It would be as good as you filing the GAR form right now, using an email2fax service which sends you an email confirming the transmission. Actually it would be better because you could do it from an internet cafe, at which you cannot check incoming emails unless you use webmail....
The proper way to deal with this is for the Home Office to set up the website, and the back end would send the data via fax (paid for by the HO of course) or some other in-house method to the appropriate force. There would then be no need to report success/failure back to the sender because the website filing itself would be legally sufficient - e.g. the website would show a 'confirmation number'.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“Now if every pilot who intended to use such a system were an AOPA member maybe AOPA could be persuaded to do the work and run the website.”
If AOPA were to set up such a system and charge a membership fee to use it I would join!
Rod1
If AOPA were to set up such a system and charge a membership fee to use it I would join!
Rod1
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess the real difficulty is that fact that you have so many different police forces in the UK. Getting police immigration and customs to agree would probably be easy.
But getting immigration, customs and a vast array of police forces to agree is going to be much more difficult, as each police force interprits the TA2000 differently.
Why do you need more than one police force in a country anyway?
But getting immigration, customs and a vast array of police forces to agree is going to be much more difficult, as each police force interprits the TA2000 differently.
Why do you need more than one police force in a country anyway?
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am sure there is an easier way.
Imagine some 737 from Dublin to Gatwick.
Is there a little Irishman, going through the passenger names and their addresses and passport numbers, and faxing off GAR forms to the appropriate special branch fax numbers?
Yeah, right
The back end system for this is already in place and has been for many years. The website would merely need to stuff the data into it.
The way to approach this would be to establish contact with the Home Office and prod them into doing this. Every single airline must know about this system - they do it every day.
Imagine some 737 from Dublin to Gatwick.
Is there a little Irishman, going through the passenger names and their addresses and passport numbers, and faxing off GAR forms to the appropriate special branch fax numbers?
Yeah, right
The back end system for this is already in place and has been for many years. The website would merely need to stuff the data into it.
The way to approach this would be to establish contact with the Home Office and prod them into doing this. Every single airline must know about this system - they do it every day.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately, the Plod never confirm receipt electronically. You get a phone call with a "permission number" (they like to pretend that you need a "permission"), and this can be any number of hours later.
The system is very simple, you make the notification on the GAR form and send it off, this can be fax post or email. You go on your trip. If they pull you on return the onus is actually on them to provide the proof not you. We have a nice system in the UK that says you are innocent until proven guilty.
If you get hassle from SB as I did once going back into Cranfield from Guernsey then complain to their superiors and point out how the law actually stands.
A website that does this is a simple enough thing to set up, the problem is the donkey work in the background getting and keeping current all of the phone numbers and emails.
I will raise it at the AOPA MWG and see if it is something that they would look at again.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Customs have a national facility, I believe that immigration do too, for SB it wouldn't be rocket science to add it to PNC, but that's outsourced so a change will be one arm and two legs minimum
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The obvious choice for the website owner would be one of the existing GA flight planning sites, for example Skybook GA. They could add it as a string to their bow, and charge a premium for the service - and extra £49.99 per year or £2.50 per transaction or something.....Easy peasy. Get a delivery receipt emailed to you with filing time etc....
You can email the info to some police forces - though I emailed ours (on the "ports" email address published on their website) to ask if I could email this information, and never got a response. That was half a year ago!
You can email the info to some police forces - though I emailed ours (on the "ports" email address published on their website) to ask if I could email this information, and never got a response. That was half a year ago!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with englishal and dublinpilot, but I don't think the State is going to do anything. I've talked to a number of policemen who agreed that a website (feeding the data directly to them) would be great, but they can't see it happening.
I reckon a commercial service, emailing back a confirmation of the [un]delivered fax, would be OK. In fact one could display the delivery status on the website used to enter the data in the first place - the sender would just have to sit around for a minute or so. Just like when filing a flight plan via homebriefing.com really.
As regards airlines, I do know they feed the passenger data to the security people somehow, in bulk, well in advance, so when the plane lands the Plod can be there waiting. There is some kind of datalink.
I reckon a commercial service, emailing back a confirmation of the [un]delivered fax, would be OK. In fact one could display the delivery status on the website used to enter the data in the first place - the sender would just have to sit around for a minute or so. Just like when filing a flight plan via homebriefing.com really.
As regards airlines, I do know they feed the passenger data to the security people somehow, in bulk, well in advance, so when the plane lands the Plod can be there waiting. There is some kind of datalink.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Cheshire
Age: 78
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no interest . . . . . . . .
Quick peek at our passports
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As regards airlines, I do know they feed the passenger data to the security people somehow, in bulk, well in advance, so when the plane lands the Plod can be there waiting. There is some kind of datalink.
Not to mention the fact that I can book myself on a flight with only a few hours notice so where they get the information well in advance is also something I would be interested in hearing about.