Should the IMCR be ditched in the quest for a greater prize?

[G-SPOTs Lost]

I am sure you are right. I like the old navaids too, and always tune them in, when available. But the fact is that CAT no longer needs them 99% of the time when enroute - except DME/DME INS fixes - because IFR flight is now a purely RNAV exercise.

No true - just done direct WAL DCT HON DCT CPT DCT SAM 200 10 before LELNA JSY DCT could have done the whole thing green needles.

IO Not having a go and dont want to get into a pi$$ing contest over then and now avionics, my point is that whatever your opinion on the future for GA Cockpits, its still the case that in the timescale that we are talking about for a IMCR replacement, traditional IFR skills, which reflect the current level of ground station capability, will still be the measure by which you will be tested ,so talk of EVS, FLir, GPS approaches, Digital autopilots are just irrelevant.

Im sorry to cause thread drift ...this about ratings not individuals or kit, I suspectyou will still have to demonstrate your ability to do things the old fashioned way to achieve a IMCR replacement or "Class 2" IR be that right or wrong its just the way it is....

[IO540]

Fair enough, for a basic IMCR privilege, they need to fly navaids. And in my FAA IR I spent two solid weeks banging navaids and nothing else (no GPS at all).

But I don't recall disputing that. Just that a lot of things which make the traditional IR hard are not applicable to real IFR flight, because of the availability of better methods.

Your example

WAL DCT HON DCT CPT DCT SAM

is not really good because you could have done that route with a kite

Try

EGHH SAM R8 DVR DCT KOK L607 NEKIR/N0150F120 L607 RUDUS/N0150F100 L984 ASKIK/N0150F120 Z74 KOSEK/N0150F100 L603 CHIEM/N0150F150 P995 ARNOS/N0150F110 P735 GILIN/N0150F120 P735 DOL/N0150F100 L868 GISER L862 OKLAX LDSP

930nm, and it will be RNAV the whole way. A nice GA flight. Sure you could fly it VOR-VOR (I counted eight VORs on that route, the first three would not be tracked anyway because London Control will send you elsewhere immediately) but it would be a lot of work, not to mention higher MEAs, and longer. The five remaining VORs are too far apart DOC-wise so you would be sitting there, rummaging around on the airways chart, picking out nearby VORs and asking ATC to let you go there - because they won't be on the Eurocontrol-validated route they have in their system.

I did that once when my panel mount GPS failed. No problem, got a VOR-VOR route but it was 2000ft higher (FL160, also OK but not for everybody) and longer, and every single ATC sector forgot that I had no RNAV and I had to tell them all over again.

And without RNAV you won't get nice shortcuts.

[S-Works]

And without RNAV you won't get nice shortcuts.

exactly, but that is not an excuse for learning the belt and braces stuff first. The KNS80 is still considered to be RNAV, if you are giving a direct that is not within it's range then it is up to you to refuse it. Intersections are made up of beacon way points so given a direct is easy on a KNS 80.

I have had to do hundreds of flight filed for no RNAV when delivering aircraft and the Dorniers and Finist on our fleet or only just going through the process of being GPS fitted.

Whilst you have a very nicely equipped aircraft, what we are talking about here is a replacement of the IMCR and that will require the training to encompass what is still out there and unlikely to change for quite some time to come. This means expert level competence of the classic nav aids.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

You miss the point

Yes you have a nicely equipped aircraft - almost airliner like in its complexity

Yes you know how to use all the kit to a good standard

Yes you know how to flightplan in the EU

Yes you are very good at flying IFR etc etc.

But the rating you seek is not entitled the "IO540 in his scroggs wondercraft rating" its an internationally recognised IR.

You will be licensed to fly in a basic IFR capable machine with just enough kit to get the job done and so therefore will be required to demonstrate your ability on that basis.

Your touring ability, deftness with flitestar or a Garmin have no relevance to the arguement. You should be proud of what you've achieved and your ability to actually get in and go. But if you want to convince others as well as yourself of your prowess, get in a PA44 with no autopilot and do a busy IRT profile where the situational awareness is mental instead of pictorial and let us all know how you get on......

[dublinpilot]

But the rating you seek is not entitled the "IO540 in his scroggs wondercraft rating" its an internationally recognised IR.

When I got my driving licence, I did my test on a fairly new, well equipped, low power car.

I was then licenced to drive any car, including a 5Ltr V12 Ferrari with dodgy brakes, and a seat that I couldn't get comfortable in and I couldn't see out of properly. (In theory I mean...I've never driven a Ferrari).

What stopped me driving something dodgy, was a sense of self preservation, not my driving test.

Likewise a new PPL is licenced to fly something must faster, complicated and difficult than the C150/PA28-140 that they qualified on. But I don't see lots of people killing themselves on more complicated machines that they take to without further training?

Why would you think that someone with an IR would take on something beyond their abilities, no matter their licence privlidges?

Why should someone need to prove their ability to exercise the privlidges of the IR to the most difficult degree, when they don't need to do so for any other area in life?

dp

ps. If the IMCR goes, then we will see lots of UK pilots go for an IR. There will be a real spike in the number of UK issued PPL/IR's because some people will not want to give up their IFR privlidges.

But those coming behind, who never had the chance to hold an IMCR will not get a EASA PPL/IR if things stay the same as they are now. All you have to do is look to other EU countries.

I am not aware of a single (current) PPL/IR in Ireland. I'm sure there are some, but I don't know them.

I would like to get an IR, but one of the biggest challenges I face is getting access to an IR machine.

It's a slippery slope. When the number of IFR rated (IMCR or IR) PPLs drop then the aeroplanes are not maintained to IFR standards. As a result pilots don't train for an IR, as the don't have access to an IFR machine.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

I was then licenced to drive any car, including a 5Ltr V12 Ferrari with dodgy brakes, and a seat that I couldn't get comfortable in and I couldn't see out of properly. (In theory I mean...I've never driven a Ferrari).

What stopped me driving something dodgy, was a sense of self preservation, not my driving test.

Again its not called the "sensible dublinpilot IR" it has to encompass everybody assuming the worst conditions on the worst day with the worst aircraft, they have to assume that if you can fly that you can cope in the posh new digital aircraft and protect people in the air from themselves and people on the ground from numptys in the air

Maybe we should use the arguement that just because you can pass your test in a mini and then drive a V12 Ferrari the next day should mean that we exempt pilots from proper testing.

I'm sure the EU who are trying to overregulate (Hence this thread) will go for that one.

Anyway theres nothing to say common sense has any place here, it hasn't since we became JAR in 2000. Remember think like a politician not a pilot

[Pace]

I am not aware of a single (current) PPL/IR in Ireland. I'm sure there are some, but I don't know them.

DublinP

This goes back to the nature of Europe and how they regard or would like to regard Aviation in Europe.

I can remember and know some ATPs who converted their licences to JAA by taking an FAA ATP, Changing it to an Irish licence and then hey presto a JAA ATP. That avenue was closed.

Margaret Thatcher (I did not agree with a lot of her views) believed that there should be as little interferance from the state in the dailly lives of people and that the market would work things out.

Europe has always been known for its Burocracy and a tendency towards state control and ownership.

The uk became a banking nation. Production ceased and employment revolved very much in the service and leisure industries and government departments.

Government departments employ millions and that is also reflected in Europe.
That leads to burocracy with many departments involved in legislation and those legislators legislating to justify their jobs.

I believe the UK government brought out 3000 new criminal offences in the course of one year.

That shows that far from Mrs Thatchers desire for less Government involvement in peoples daily lives we are now in a situation of massive controls and massive involvement in peoples lives.

That is the nature of Europe and that in itself is also relective in it attitude towards aviation ie more and more legislation and hence costs and restrictions.

I am afraid the PPL flying for his/her pleasure in what is regarded as a rich mans hobby probably doesnt figure much in a mindset which would really like ALL aviation to be controlled through commercial travel only for the millions. They probably look at private flight with disgust and something they wish did not exist.

That is what we are really up against.

Pace

[IO540]

I can remember and know some ATPs who converted their licences to JAA by taking an FAA ATP, Changing it to an Irish licence and then hey presto a JAA ATP. That avenue was closed.

That's interesting. Do you mean one could convert an FAA ATPL to an Irish ATPL without sitting all the ground exams? That was never AFAIK possible anywhere else in JAA-land. Any conversion route always involves sitting all the exams.

[Pace]

That's interesting. Do you mean one could convert an FAA ATPL to an Irish ATPL without sitting all the ground exams? That was never AFAIK possible anywhere else in JAA-land. Any conversion route always involves sitting all the exams.

10540

I believe that used to be the case and know a couple of JAA ATPs who took that route through that particular loophole. But dont try it now

Pace

[englishal]

its still the case that in the timescale that we are talking about for a IMCR replacement, traditional IFR skills, which reflect the current level of ground station capability, will still be the measure by which you will be tested ,so talk of EVS, FLir, GPS approaches, Digital autopilots are just irrelevant.

Im sorry to cause thread drift ...this about ratings not individuals or kit, I suspectyou will still have to

Just out of interest though, if I rock up in a DA40 or Mooney with G1000, (With synthetic vision just for the sake of argument) and I want my IMCr renewal flight, how will an examiner do it? If it is all so traditional then are there ANY examiners qualified to use and examine me using this kit?
Do I have to go to America to get this done?

[S-Works]

Just out of interest though, if I rock up in a DA40 or Mooney with G1000, (With synthetic vision just for the sake of argument) and I want my IMCr renewal flight, how will an examiner do it? If it is all so traditional then are there ANY examiners qualified to use and examine me using this kit?
Do I have to go to America to get this done?

You are just displaying stunning naivety here Al or are you just looking for a fight?

You know full well that the G1000 is commonly used for IR training in the UK and people are examined on it. You also know that the steam skills are tested and normally on a steam aircraft.

It is not 'so traditional' and that was not what was at the heart of what was being said. Regardless of the fandango gadgets available you still have to demonstrate the core skills and that is unlikely to change until we see the last steam equipped cockpit vanish. I am pretty sure the oil will be gone before that happens.

[englishal]

So...how do you test my "steam skills" in a G1000 equiped aeroplane then Stevo? Yep you can pull breakers, but lets be fair, now we're still not "steam" driven are we. I was making the point that will still be the measure by which you will be tested ,so talk of EVS, FLir, GPS approaches, Digital autopilots are just irrelevant. is not the case......

My mate did his JAR IR in a Duchess with a G430. He wasn't allowed to use it. Other places would have EXPECTED you to use it......

Anyway, enough, I'm off to watch Jackass.........

[Pace]

One of the problems we do have is who is our voice? AOPA is one which I have had a lot of help from in the past but as one poster said only a tiny proportion subscribe too.

Without one voice and a powerful voice we are all on a looser. Fragmented approaches from enthusiastic well meaning groups will not get us far.

Maybe instead of opting into an organisation like AOPA we should opt out?
Ie make it compulsory to join a represantive group but with the option to opt out?

I know in my car racing days you had to belong to one of two clubs to be able to compete on club basis.

Just a thought to chuck in the pot

Pace

[Johnm]

Well I renewed my IMCR today in my Archer 2 with steam driven gauges. I even proved I could recover from unusual attitudes with only half of them

I also proved I could fly straight and level and manage turns too with just a compass for headings (could have used turn co-ordinator and watch but I didn't)

Flying a procedural ILS and a simulated SRA with GPS and autopilot switched off was hard work but easily doable. So now I'm legal everywhere outside ClassA in the UK for another 25 months

[S-Works]

So...how do you test my "steam skills" in a G1000 equiped aeroplane then Stevo? Yep you can pull breakers, but lets be fair, now we're still not "steam" driven are we. I was making the point that will still be the measure by which you will be tested ,so talk of EVS, FLir, GPS approaches, Digital autopilots are just irrelevant. is not the case......

I think you will find that those who do the IR in a Glass cockpit have to go to a steam machine to demonstrate the old skills for the IR test.