Ultimate Controlled Airspace Infringement

[gasax]

AFAIK there have been 12 in-flight break-ups (some sources state only 7). Of the first couple of hundred airframes there was a mass recall to sort out engine issues. The Meridian is New Piper's version of the Jetprop conversion so highly likely the wing structure is the same.

[LH2]

I suppose that if you are going to make a b**lls up you might as well as do it in style...

No point in getting busted for something minor

obviously just missed Gatwick...

Ah, that wouldn't have happened had he been carrying a GPS

...and yes, I know where my coat is, thank you

[Keygrip]

To be fair to Piper - I'm led to believe that the subsequent board(s) of investigation found that the wing problem was actually an instrument flying training problem. Not the aircraft.

Seems that this *single engine, piston* aircraft was bought and flown by numerous, relatively wealthy, pilots who lacked the experience of the performance of this aircraft type.

It was often their first encounter with cloud entry - despite holding a full instrument rating.

The combination of factors led to spatial disorientation, followed by an uncommanded high rate of descent. As the aircraft fell out of the cloud and the pilot regained visual references, their control inputs to attempt to get the aircraft back to straight and level flight resulted in overstressing the aircraft, snapping of the main spar, and the detachment of the wing(s) - which didn't help with the unusual attitude recovery.

[S-Works]

The new meridians have a different wing to the mirage and the mirage has a different wing to the early Malibu.

There have been a few engine failures in the early versions due to mishandling. The original engine had to be run LOP and pilots not comfortable with the process ran at peak or ROP. This caused no end of problems with CHT's and pressures etc.

When the engine was changed to one that would one LOP or ROP then problem disappeared and the reliability was not different from similar types. In fact compare something like a TB20 and a Malibu for failures.....

But what would I know I only fly the Piper.

[Fuji Abound]

I thought the TB20 had a pretty good record?

[ShyTorque]

If only he had used 121.5 and obtained assistance.....

Perhaps he did try and the stroppy airline pilots' "keep off my guard" club scared him off it again......

[S-Works]

I thought the TB20 had a pretty good record?

It does and so does the Malibu/Mirage/Meridian series.

You can't design out pilot error. Or it seems the green eyed monster......

[Fuji Abound]

This forum needs a bit of Shakespeare.

[IO540]

There is only one known TB20/21 in-flight breakup (TB21 PH-UBG in 2001, in an embedded thunderstorm) which is pretty unique in GA, for ~ 2000 built over ~ 20 years. I seriously doubt there is another GA type which approaches this standard even by an order of magnitude.

AFAIK there have been 12 in-flight break-ups (some sources state only 7). Of the first couple of hundred airframes there was a mass recall to sort out engine issues. The Meridian is New Piper's version of the Jetprop conversion so highly likely the wing structure is the same.

The history of the airframe design is non-trivial. A friend has just bought a Jetprop (a PT6 turboprop conversion of a Malibu Mirage) and done an extensive due diligence on it. Different strenghtening mods were done by Piper at different points. I looked at the piston Mirage briefly and got two opposing versions of the engine story.

As regards breaking them, well it's not built like a tank which the TB20 is with its massive machined spar. It is built like a PA28. It's slippery and if you fly it at Vne into a CB the wings will just break right off - just as they would with a PA28 and most other types

Back to the topic, I think the reason for something like this has to be some mega cockup (well you could say this is self evident) along the lines of somebody, just perhaps, being on an IFR clearance and being dumped out of CAS near/in the LTMA, and being - entirely legitimately - without VFR charts or any notion of where CAS lies, and together with some confusion.......... ??

Tell you what you can try. Pick the next 747 heading for LHR from Orlando, and somewhere over Bristol ask it to descend out of controlled airspace and proceed VFR, then sit back and see what happens. Of course the crew will have UK VFR charts, and will duly continue to Manston at 2400ft on the correct QNH

Not saying this is what happened here but in the right set of circumstances, with all the holes in the cheese lining up, it would be easy to do.

The more obvious explanation is that the pilot was a complete muppet. There are plenty of muppets with PPLs but relatively very few of them will get their hands on a Mirage (which in the UK needs a type rating, and in FAA land needs type specific training to get even insured).

[Roffa]

If you're flying IFR in to somewhere like Elstree, Denham, Stapleford etc you have to descend out of CAS at some point and as you're going to an airfield with no IFR approach procedure I imagine it might make sense to have a VFR chart with you in such circumstances...

[mm_flynn]

Or you could be going to Shoreham or Biggin or Farnborough, etc. and being Johnny foreigner expect to fly the same type of IFR you do at home - and be armed with your LO-x charts and book of approach plates, but lacking in UK VFR chart.

[IO540]

If you're flying IFR in to somewhere like Elstree, Denham, Stapleford etc you have to descend out of CAS at some point and as you're going to an airfield with no IFR approach procedure I imagine it might make sense to have a VFR chart with you in such circumstances...

Yes I agree and any UK based pilot with more than 2 braincells should know that.

But (and this is a pretty wide topic to do with different ATC practices around the world) outside the UK and its informal "non-radio IFR in Class G and loads of Class G" environment there is a general expectation that on an IFR flight you will proceed IFR all the way to the end, so you sort out a VFR approach chart for the destination (you are not going to find an IFR chart for Elstree - other than that unpublished IAP - anyway so the VFR plates is all you will get) and off you go.

That is how it works in the USA, to a large degree. You can be in Class E (CAS for IFR) all the way to the last 1200ft.

Also, if filing a Eurocontrol FP to a UK VFR-only destination, you can file "I" to it (try it, it always works). Eurocontrol chucks this out for some countries - presumably those which prohibit IFR OCAS, or it could just be that those countries have specifically requested that Eurocontrol rejects "I" flight plans to/from a list of such airports. Z or Y has to be used for those, but you select (and file) the waypoint at which the IFR to VFR transition happens and you are entitled to remain IFR till that waypoint.

But this principle is operated very loosely in the UK.

So, going say from LTFJ in Turkey to Welshpool EGCW, you can file "I" expecting to be under ATC direction all the way to RETSI or NITON, but London Control could well ask you to descend out of CAS at DVR or LYD! Leving you to hack your way at 2400ft for ~ 150nm, and actually the MSA is a lot more than that later on. While you are entitled to refuse that, a large % of pilots will blindly do what ATC tells them. I am not blaming ATC for this incident - I haven't got a clue what caused it - but imagine this happening to a foreign pilot who probably cannot even buy the CAA chart in Turkey and the best he will have is Jeppview with its rather bare VFR charts, or the equally poor Jeppesen GPS moving map CAS representation, plus an expectation to not fly VFR anyway. It would be fine for me and most other reasonably seasoned UK Class G hackers but it would royally screw up the foreigner.

[Final 3 Greens]

Or you could be an (ill informed about UK) FAA licensed pilot who thinks that ackowledgement of a call, in cluding call sign, is permission to enter CAS.

[IO540]

Or you could be an (ill informed about UK) FAA licensed pilot who thinks that ackowledgement of a call, in cluding call sign, is permission to enter CAS.

Possible but that would be really stupid. And if this pilot really was doing that, he would be in two-way contact with ATC (as per U.S. rules) and the said ATC would probably tell him to get out of there. Even if the said ATC was say Elstree, I am sure Elstree will get a phone call from LC pretty damn fast if this kind of thing develops. After all, LC will know the filed destination, and will have transferred him to its frequency.

Also not relevant to the IFR-flight scenario because CAS/OCAS doesn't apply there.

[Roffa]

IO,

So, going say from LTFJ in Turkey to Welshpool EGCW, you can file "I" expecting to be under ATC direction all the way to RETSI or NITON, but London Control could well ask you to descend out of CAS at DVR or LYD! Leving you to hack your way at 2400ft for ~ 150nm, and actually the MSA is a lot more than that later on. While you are entitled to refuse that, a large % of pilots will blindly do what ATC tells them.

Could you give me an actual example of someone coming from the south going to an airfield in Wales getting dumped out of CAS at DVR or LYD or are you exaggerating just a little?

[eharding]

Originally Posted by Fuji Abound

This forum needs a bit of Shakespeare.

..that he that hath no stomach to this flight, let him depart.

His passport shall be made, and crowns for convoy put into his purse.

We would not fly in that man's company, who fears his fellowship to fly with us.

[podgyflyer]

My personal favourite from the white booklet is the barnstorming stampe pilot on p27 who carried out a loop the loop at Gloucester during an overhead join, do you think he misinterpreted ATC's instructions?

I don't think he did anything wrong. You see, ATC asked him to make an orbit for separation and he did... just in the vertical plane.

[BackPacker]

I don't think he did anything wrong.

Technically speaking, I think he did. We're talking about a controlled field ("ATC asked him...") so presumably controlled airspace (although I can't place the OHJ in that case though).

Aerobatics are forbidden in controlled airspace unless specific permission has been granted. "One 360 for separation" is not specific enough, I think.

But it is tempting sometimes. How about making a snap roll when ATC asks you "one 360 over left, report back on downwind"?

[Fuji Abound]

eHarding

Beautiful.

I had in mind the original reference to jealousy:

O, beware, my lord, of jealousy;
It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock
The meat it feeds on;

[Final 3 Greens]

Possible but that would be really stupid. And if this pilot really was doing that, he would be in two-way contact with ATC (as per U.S. rules) and the said ATC would probably tell him to get out of there. Even if the said ATC was say Elstree, I am sure Elstree will get a phone call from LC pretty damn fast if this kind of thing develops. After all, LC will know the filed destination, and will have transferred him to its frequency.

Also not relevant to the IFR-flight scenario because CAS/OCAS doesn't apply there.

Well I agree it would be really stupid, but this incident does not sound as if it involved high levels of airmanship, does it?

The OP's description doesn't say whether it was IFR, VFR or whatever, I was visualising a conversation with London Info, where someone who didn't realise thought they had "flight following" and had got clearance to enter the TMA.

Not likely, I grant you, but then again there must be a hell of an explanation for this one.