Radio Spectrum Pricing - more costs to GA?
No, bose-x, I'm sorry but I didn't get anything via the MWG e-mail list. Have the IC and MWG mail lists been merged?
The information came via another PPRuNer whilst we were writing about other matters.
Thanks anyway for the paraphrase!
The information came via another PPRuNer whilst we were writing about other matters.
Thanks anyway for the paraphrase!
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No, bose-x, I'm sorry but I didn't get anything via the MWG e-mail list. Have the IC and MWG mail lists been merged?
The information came via another PPRuNer whilst we were writing about other matters.
Thanks anyway for the paraphrase!
The information came via another PPRuNer whilst we were writing about other matters.
Thanks anyway for the paraphrase!
No the 2 lists are separate with overlap for people like me and Chris.
Ofcom have just released an 'update':
Ofcom consultation on introducing Administered Incentive Pricing (AIP) for the maritime and aeronautical sectors: December 2008 update | Ofcom
Weasel words indeed to describe the reception their daft idea of spectrum pricing for nothing more than government greed has received!
Ofcom consultation on introducing Administered Incentive Pricing (AIP) for the maritime and aeronautical sectors: December 2008 update | Ofcom
Weasel words indeed to describe the reception their daft idea of spectrum pricing for nothing more than government greed has received!
Last edited by BEagle; 17th Dec 2008 at 14:20.
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To me, this sounds like a face saving way of saying they have decided to drop it. That's the way I would write it if I didn't want to look like a total d1ck. Must read Alan Clark's diary (the 1st part) 
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The suggestion that a small airfield had "it's" frequency taken away from it and "given" to a large airport is frankly ridiculous and just demonstrates the lack of understanding by a few within the GA community.
Airports throughout the UK have to share frequencies because of the lack of space within the VHF spectrum, for the most part, those experiencing interference do so because they are using them outwith the published DOC within the UKAIP, sometimes if the pressure is exceptionally high, nature interferes and nothing can be done about that.
If and when digital radio frequencies replace MW and VHF frequencies for commercial radio stations, then more space will become available for the use of others but, as always has been the case, they won't be free.
Commercial organisations (airports) pay a lot of money for the use of VHF, MW and UHF frequencies, not only for RT channels, but for ILS,MLS, VOR and NDBs.
GA already pay a very small amount towards this through landing fees, but as with everything GA when it comes to airports, you get a lot and contribute very little in terms of commercial income.
Airports throughout the UK have to share frequencies because of the lack of space within the VHF spectrum, for the most part, those experiencing interference do so because they are using them outwith the published DOC within the UKAIP, sometimes if the pressure is exceptionally high, nature interferes and nothing can be done about that.
If and when digital radio frequencies replace MW and VHF frequencies for commercial radio stations, then more space will become available for the use of others but, as always has been the case, they won't be free.
Commercial organisations (airports) pay a lot of money for the use of VHF, MW and UHF frequencies, not only for RT channels, but for ILS,MLS, VOR and NDBs.
GA already pay a very small amount towards this through landing fees, but as with everything GA when it comes to airports, you get a lot and contribute very little in terms of commercial income.
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Come on goatface, it's not just GA - this would have affected the whole of aviation and caused mayhem.
The pricing of frequencies which are operated under ICAO obligations is just a tax. It has about as much meaning or logic as charging people for wearing underpants.
It would have massively distorted the use of navaids. GA airfields would have dumped all navaids and gone big-time for GPS approaches, which hilariously would be a good thing because we do need GPS approaches (except that the vast majority of light planes don't have the - approved - equipment to fly them, so this would be a huge detriment to safety) but the UK Govt would have paid dearly for the DMEs which will always be used by airlines, to correct their INS nav systems. Current Eurocontrol plans are to dismantle VORs past 2015 and plant hundreds of DMEs around Europe for the airlines' usage. The UK would have paid dearly for its share of this DME population.
There are loads of VHF frequencies available - it has been proven by IAOPA that the whole 25/8.33 problem would go away if allocation was done centrally for Europe. The usual aviation-political (national CAA job protection, basically) interests prevent this happening. The USA does not need 8.33 because they have exactly this - completely trivial - system.
The pricing of frequencies which are operated under ICAO obligations is just a tax. It has about as much meaning or logic as charging people for wearing underpants.
It would have massively distorted the use of navaids. GA airfields would have dumped all navaids and gone big-time for GPS approaches, which hilariously would be a good thing because we do need GPS approaches (except that the vast majority of light planes don't have the - approved - equipment to fly them, so this would be a huge detriment to safety) but the UK Govt would have paid dearly for the DMEs which will always be used by airlines, to correct their INS nav systems. Current Eurocontrol plans are to dismantle VORs past 2015 and plant hundreds of DMEs around Europe for the airlines' usage. The UK would have paid dearly for its share of this DME population.
There are loads of VHF frequencies available - it has been proven by IAOPA that the whole 25/8.33 problem would go away if allocation was done centrally for Europe. The usual aviation-political (national CAA job protection, basically) interests prevent this happening. The USA does not need 8.33 because they have exactly this - completely trivial - system.
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Look at history.
When 3G phone licences went up for auction, the UK telcos paid so much that Spain cancelled all the licences they had given away a few months earlier and auctioned theirs, earning billions.
But when Scottish Television had to rebid for their licence about 10-15 years ago, they worked out that no-one else was interested and bid just £1. Yes, 100p.
So, let's have an auction, starting at £1.
Then if small airfields don't bid, the floor price will be £1.
Then small airfields can apply and say: we'll pay the commerical rate, here's a quid.
Then the govt loses money - as it tends to do on all its projects (see the one about the computer system merger that would save 60m and has now cost 80m the other day!)
When 3G phone licences went up for auction, the UK telcos paid so much that Spain cancelled all the licences they had given away a few months earlier and auctioned theirs, earning billions.
But when Scottish Television had to rebid for their licence about 10-15 years ago, they worked out that no-one else was interested and bid just £1. Yes, 100p.
So, let's have an auction, starting at £1.
Then if small airfields don't bid, the floor price will be £1.
Then small airfields can apply and say: we'll pay the commerical rate, here's a quid.
Then the govt loses money - as it tends to do on all its projects (see the one about the computer system merger that would save 60m and has now cost 80m the other day!)
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XA, the difference is that telco's make money by using those frequencies. Directly.
In aviation, we don't make money from our radio communications or navaids. Instead, we use them to enhance safety, situational awareness and so forth.
Because of this, it's extremely hard to put a value on a frequency. While for the telco's it's easy - you can basically look at your balance sheet.
It would be possible to make money from aeronautical frequencies though, by using the same mechanism that TV and radio uses: advertising.
"G-ABCD, this is London Center, sponsored today by XYZ company"
"This is Heathrow information Zulu, brought to you by XYZ company"
"G-ABCD, you are cleared to land and once you're down, XYZ company is running a special in the cafeteria on the ground floor which we'd like to recommend."
And we can get rid of those pesky morse code identifiers too:
"This is the XYZ NDB. Check out our website at www dot xyz dot com. This is the XYZ NDB..."
In aviation, we don't make money from our radio communications or navaids. Instead, we use them to enhance safety, situational awareness and so forth.
Because of this, it's extremely hard to put a value on a frequency. While for the telco's it's easy - you can basically look at your balance sheet.
It would be possible to make money from aeronautical frequencies though, by using the same mechanism that TV and radio uses: advertising.
"G-ABCD, this is London Center, sponsored today by XYZ company"
"This is Heathrow information Zulu, brought to you by XYZ company"
"G-ABCD, you are cleared to land and once you're down, XYZ company is running a special in the cafeteria on the ground floor which we'd like to recommend."
And we can get rid of those pesky morse code identifiers too:
"This is the XYZ NDB. Check out our website at www dot xyz dot com. This is the XYZ NDB..."
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Backpacker,
Scottish Television is a commercial TV station, which makes money from advertising.
Yet it "commercially" valued its frequency at just £1.
So my point is, that even if valued commercially, our airband may not even be worth the trouble of selling it off.
After all, the price someone is willing to pay is affected by the demand.
So if all the small operators boycott the deal, the big boys - like Heathrow - can then just tender a single pound knowing they will get their frequencies.
Then the govt will get even less than it does now!
And the small operators will then be able to apply afterwards at just a quid a go for the unused spectrum.
Scottish Television is a commercial TV station, which makes money from advertising.
Yet it "commercially" valued its frequency at just £1.
So my point is, that even if valued commercially, our airband may not even be worth the trouble of selling it off.
After all, the price someone is willing to pay is affected by the demand.
So if all the small operators boycott the deal, the big boys - like Heathrow - can then just tender a single pound knowing they will get their frequencies.
Then the govt will get even less than it does now!
And the small operators will then be able to apply afterwards at just a quid a go for the unused spectrum.
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XA, that sets a precedent for the rest of the world, and is a big gamble.
First, it sets a precedent because the UK would be the only country that assumes that the aeronautical frequencies have a business value and can be sold and taxed. But aviation doesn't make money from these frequencies. It makes money by hauling freight (sometimes self-loading) about. Our business would technically be possible without radio communications, although the capacity of the system would be greatly reduced, and safety would be severely compromised. But mobile phones or (non-cable) TV and radio, without a radio frequency is simply impossible.
Furthermore, it's a big gamble. Right now these frequencies are set aside, worldwide, for aviation. But what if a non-aviation company makes a bid for a few frequencies and starts using them for non-aviation purposes? The only law that they've got to abide with is the ANO and they can make a convincing case that since they bought the frequency, they're allowed to use it any way they please, rest of the world be damned. Particularly if their DOC is limited to the UK.
Oh, and what would happen if I make a bid of, let's say, 2 quid for 121.5 and decide that what aviation needs is a 24-hour music station? In fact, I can bid 2 quid on all of the 760 or so available frequencies and just wait and see who outbids me, and put my 24-hour aviation news network on any frequency that I get.
The fact that Scottish TV was lucky and was the only bidder on a frequency was an exception. Even more so that they knew about it and had the guts to bid one quid. Any old Scotsman could have made a higher bid and then lease the frequency to Scottish TV for a much larger amount. I predict they can only pull this stunt only once and need to bid a much, much higher amount next time the license comes up for auction.
First, it sets a precedent because the UK would be the only country that assumes that the aeronautical frequencies have a business value and can be sold and taxed. But aviation doesn't make money from these frequencies. It makes money by hauling freight (sometimes self-loading) about. Our business would technically be possible without radio communications, although the capacity of the system would be greatly reduced, and safety would be severely compromised. But mobile phones or (non-cable) TV and radio, without a radio frequency is simply impossible.
Furthermore, it's a big gamble. Right now these frequencies are set aside, worldwide, for aviation. But what if a non-aviation company makes a bid for a few frequencies and starts using them for non-aviation purposes? The only law that they've got to abide with is the ANO and they can make a convincing case that since they bought the frequency, they're allowed to use it any way they please, rest of the world be damned. Particularly if their DOC is limited to the UK.
Oh, and what would happen if I make a bid of, let's say, 2 quid for 121.5 and decide that what aviation needs is a 24-hour music station? In fact, I can bid 2 quid on all of the 760 or so available frequencies and just wait and see who outbids me, and put my 24-hour aviation news network on any frequency that I get.
The fact that Scottish TV was lucky and was the only bidder on a frequency was an exception. Even more so that they knew about it and had the guts to bid one quid. Any old Scotsman could have made a higher bid and then lease the frequency to Scottish TV for a much larger amount. I predict they can only pull this stunt only once and need to bid a much, much higher amount next time the license comes up for auction.
