The purpose of this forum
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: London
Quote:
Previous post ignored.....
Not if you replied to it......
Previous post ignored.....
Not if you replied to it......
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,631
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From: UK
David
I didn’t follow the thread about landing a Cessna because it didn’t particularly interest me. One of the comments on here provoked me into having a read - although I must admit I only got through the first five pages.
I have no doubt that you have a PPL. It is also quite clear you thoroughly enjoy your flying.
When I started flying I developed some very "set" ideas about what was right and wrong, what I thought worked and what didn’t. Many, if not most, of these ideas came from my instructors (I think I may have had half a dozen through my PPL). After all, they were instructors, they must be right.
Then I joined a small group. The guy who ran the group was a past RAF fast jet instructor and latterly commercial pilot. The aircraft was aerobatic and he loved aeros. Another chap in the group flew an air ambulance throughout Europe, summer and winter in all sorts of crap weather. The third guy spent his early days "aeroing" Chinocks for the RAF before becoming a BA training captain. One way or another I did 1,000 hours or so with that lot.
Of course as a newly minted PPL I though I knew how to fly an aircraft. I had also done an IMC rating so I thought I could fly through a CB chucking out water whilst the ADF receiver clicked in the background.
Fortunately one way or another these guys took me under their wing. I don’t think they ever “told” me what to do. There was the occasional - why don’t you try this, see how that works for you, or I see you usually do it that way, but I wonder what you would do if this happened, I got to know what the odd wince meant, and how they knew I was going to miss the vertical in the hammerhead before I did. Then I started flying with a few other pilots who hadn’t got that many hours. I watched the approach into a long wet runway with a quartering crosswind, a few extra knots creep onto the approach, a landing a bit to hard onto squidgy mud and a hurried attempt to retrieve us from disaster with the trees at the end of the runway having unbelievably become a lot closer than I ever thought possible. I listened to the fella tell me his instructor had always told him to carry a little more speed into a wet runway, land firmly and not worry with the final stage of flap. Yeah, I thought, that was me. I listened some more when he commented that he thought the runway was more than long enough and had never floated so far down the runway before.
There was nothing “wrong” with the instruction I had when I did my PPL. In fact it was very good. However, it only went so far. I could have continued flying much like I was taught but I consider I was very fortunate and privileged to join that first group. There have since been a few times when a situation has arisen and after wards I have found myself thinking what would John have done, and was that what I did - and I can tell you it has saved my skin on occasions. It did on the example above when there is no doubt we would have been in the trees if I had not been conscious of what was about to happen as we touched down on that wet and slippery runway that grey November day with just a bit too much speed, started to go sideways whilst the pilot applied power without any regard to what was at the end of the runway and what the wind was doing.
I am sorry for such a long post. However, please can I prevail on you to take the opportunity to fly with one or two of the guys on here - I am sure they would oblige, or hunt down someone with backgrounds of the sort I have outline above. You will have a lot of fun and you may find you change a belief or two about how this game works. If you only ever fly off long tarmac, on good days, with not too much wind you will enjoy your flying for a long time to come, but if you are persuaded to fly to a new strip one wet, windy and grey November day you might find they have something more to contribute.
Just a thought.
[Edited to correct terrible spelling - worse than usual!]
I didn’t follow the thread about landing a Cessna because it didn’t particularly interest me. One of the comments on here provoked me into having a read - although I must admit I only got through the first five pages.
I have no doubt that you have a PPL. It is also quite clear you thoroughly enjoy your flying.
When I started flying I developed some very "set" ideas about what was right and wrong, what I thought worked and what didn’t. Many, if not most, of these ideas came from my instructors (I think I may have had half a dozen through my PPL). After all, they were instructors, they must be right.
Then I joined a small group. The guy who ran the group was a past RAF fast jet instructor and latterly commercial pilot. The aircraft was aerobatic and he loved aeros. Another chap in the group flew an air ambulance throughout Europe, summer and winter in all sorts of crap weather. The third guy spent his early days "aeroing" Chinocks for the RAF before becoming a BA training captain. One way or another I did 1,000 hours or so with that lot.
Of course as a newly minted PPL I though I knew how to fly an aircraft. I had also done an IMC rating so I thought I could fly through a CB chucking out water whilst the ADF receiver clicked in the background.
Fortunately one way or another these guys took me under their wing. I don’t think they ever “told” me what to do. There was the occasional - why don’t you try this, see how that works for you, or I see you usually do it that way, but I wonder what you would do if this happened, I got to know what the odd wince meant, and how they knew I was going to miss the vertical in the hammerhead before I did. Then I started flying with a few other pilots who hadn’t got that many hours. I watched the approach into a long wet runway with a quartering crosswind, a few extra knots creep onto the approach, a landing a bit to hard onto squidgy mud and a hurried attempt to retrieve us from disaster with the trees at the end of the runway having unbelievably become a lot closer than I ever thought possible. I listened to the fella tell me his instructor had always told him to carry a little more speed into a wet runway, land firmly and not worry with the final stage of flap. Yeah, I thought, that was me. I listened some more when he commented that he thought the runway was more than long enough and had never floated so far down the runway before.
There was nothing “wrong” with the instruction I had when I did my PPL. In fact it was very good. However, it only went so far. I could have continued flying much like I was taught but I consider I was very fortunate and privileged to join that first group. There have since been a few times when a situation has arisen and after wards I have found myself thinking what would John have done, and was that what I did - and I can tell you it has saved my skin on occasions. It did on the example above when there is no doubt we would have been in the trees if I had not been conscious of what was about to happen as we touched down on that wet and slippery runway that grey November day with just a bit too much speed, started to go sideways whilst the pilot applied power without any regard to what was at the end of the runway and what the wind was doing.
I am sorry for such a long post. However, please can I prevail on you to take the opportunity to fly with one or two of the guys on here - I am sure they would oblige, or hunt down someone with backgrounds of the sort I have outline above. You will have a lot of fun and you may find you change a belief or two about how this game works. If you only ever fly off long tarmac, on good days, with not too much wind you will enjoy your flying for a long time to come, but if you are persuaded to fly to a new strip one wet, windy and grey November day you might find they have something more to contribute.
Just a thought.
[Edited to correct terrible spelling - worse than usual!]
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 339
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From: London
Thanks for the nice long post. People seem to have more time on Sundays!
Yes I am sure you are absolutely right - I suppose the trick is to know who is a good pilot to learn from. No doubt as with car drivers there are pilots with lots of experience who have developed dangerous habits?
Yes I am sure you are absolutely right - I suppose the trick is to know who is a good pilot to learn from. No doubt as with car drivers there are pilots with lots of experience who have developed dangerous habits?
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
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From: Cambridge, England, EU
Oh and never forget, that whilst many people won't admit to reading Pprune. Virtually everyone in the industry does. You can get yourself into a lot of trouble if you come across as a dangerous idiot. It will be noted, especially if you p*ss off certain people.
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Posts: n/a
I suppose the trick is to know who is a good pilot to learn from. No doubt as with car drivers there are pilots with lots of experience who have developed dangerous habits?
1 - Fuji has given some examples of good pilots to learn from, airline pilots who train for their companies, in my experience, are very good if you wish to learn about becoming more consistent in what you do and making better decisions; this is what they apply as line pilots and educators of other line pilots, they also have teaching skills. I cannot over emphasise what I learned from these people about decision making and its importance in safe aviating
2 - All people can develop dangerous habits in any field (remember its called human factors) One has to learn to make judgments about other pilots. For example, a B52 captain took his crew to the farm a number of years ago by exceeding the aircraft limits, yet he was a senior officer and apparently a very good stick and rudder man, who had handled the aircraft in a similar way before and got away with it - a real hot dog until that final turn
YouTube - B-52 Bomber Crashes during Air Show
That judgement will come with experience, in the meantime you may have to ask around and average out peeople's opinions
Pompey till I die
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 779
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From: Guildford
Turned up at the airport yesterday to be greeted by an instructor with "Hello Gertrude".
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,443
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From: Cambridge, England, EU
Good photo that! - whenever I've tried to take a picture of one it's run towards me and tried to eat the camera, and I've never managed to push the button whilst the thing is still in focus!
Fleet Manager
Joined: Aug 2006
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 7,090
Likes: 2,952
From: Ontario, Canada
My opinion is that the purpose of this forum is to mentor and be mentored. When I first started reading a few years back, I thought, "what a great place to learn" (I already had enough knowledge to usually see a fool writing, and take it with that much value).
I soon realized though, that a lot of the posters were asking questions for which I had well experienced and proven answers. I soon found myself answering a lot more than asking. The asking has not stopped though, it’s just on other forums.
12 years ago I was one of three people who lifted my very dead buddy from his burning and badly crumpled Cessna 150, after he had done something quite similar to that B-52. A number of us had told him to smarten up, and fly right. We should have pushed more, as he was a family man, and the sole owner of a very busy local airport/air service/maintenance facility, his death deeply affected local aviation, and many people’s live were changed.
That event, among other more recent events, has reminded me that those of us who have lived through those learning years of piloting, are now duty bound to give back the best we can, to promote safe and enjoyable aviation. Those of us who value a healthy aviation industry are not served well by the pain and poor public image of accidents. We are not served well by more regulation, whose purpose is to regulate away more privileges because some idiot pilot found a new way to hurt someone, which we would have never imagined. I make my living evaluating and testing aircraft. If people fly less, I work less.
In order to mentor and promote techniques which I know to be safe, I wrote in another thread, the following:
“The object of landing, is to have the aircraft stall wings level, and smoothly stop flying just as it touches the runway in good control, with lots of room ahead. That requires slightly differing techniques in different aircraft, but the end result is the same. If you got a stall warning horn as you gently touched, you probably had a great landing too, and had to explain to some pleased passengers what the stall warning sound was.”
The person who started this thread, took that statement for a run, and after another 200 plus posts, lost. He lost any credibility which had been extended to him out of courtesy, he lost any chance of being considered a peer here (even with the newest of newbies) for a very long time, and he lost the privilege of posting on that thread. The effort which a lot of us expended on his behalf, was, for the most part, apparently wasted. Doubtless, with the attitude demonstrated by this “fully qualified” lesser experienced pilot, people on the ground may one day be lifting him out of a wreck. I do not wish this, but the risk is a reality. I very much wish that this fellow not be permitted to carry passengers because of that higher risk.
That said, if an otherwise airworthy aircraft becomes a useless ball of aluminum at the hands of this pilot, my conscience is clear. I expended effort to mentor a better appreciation for good technique, willingness to learn, and a better attitude. I am convinced it was a waste of my time. I did, along the way though, build a bit of a bond with pilots here who are my peers, or to whom one day I might be a peer.
So that is the purpose of this forum, as I see it.
Dear Moderator, in the other thread, you very effectively fulfilled a request, and a swift and appropriate end was brought to a ridiculous situation. Such worthwhile action on your part might again be worthy of consideration, but perhaps on a wider scale. I suppose it’s worth waiting through a few more posts to see if an attitude improves, but how many chances does someone get?
Pilot DAR
I soon realized though, that a lot of the posters were asking questions for which I had well experienced and proven answers. I soon found myself answering a lot more than asking. The asking has not stopped though, it’s just on other forums.
12 years ago I was one of three people who lifted my very dead buddy from his burning and badly crumpled Cessna 150, after he had done something quite similar to that B-52. A number of us had told him to smarten up, and fly right. We should have pushed more, as he was a family man, and the sole owner of a very busy local airport/air service/maintenance facility, his death deeply affected local aviation, and many people’s live were changed.
That event, among other more recent events, has reminded me that those of us who have lived through those learning years of piloting, are now duty bound to give back the best we can, to promote safe and enjoyable aviation. Those of us who value a healthy aviation industry are not served well by the pain and poor public image of accidents. We are not served well by more regulation, whose purpose is to regulate away more privileges because some idiot pilot found a new way to hurt someone, which we would have never imagined. I make my living evaluating and testing aircraft. If people fly less, I work less.
In order to mentor and promote techniques which I know to be safe, I wrote in another thread, the following:
“The object of landing, is to have the aircraft stall wings level, and smoothly stop flying just as it touches the runway in good control, with lots of room ahead. That requires slightly differing techniques in different aircraft, but the end result is the same. If you got a stall warning horn as you gently touched, you probably had a great landing too, and had to explain to some pleased passengers what the stall warning sound was.”
The person who started this thread, took that statement for a run, and after another 200 plus posts, lost. He lost any credibility which had been extended to him out of courtesy, he lost any chance of being considered a peer here (even with the newest of newbies) for a very long time, and he lost the privilege of posting on that thread. The effort which a lot of us expended on his behalf, was, for the most part, apparently wasted. Doubtless, with the attitude demonstrated by this “fully qualified” lesser experienced pilot, people on the ground may one day be lifting him out of a wreck. I do not wish this, but the risk is a reality. I very much wish that this fellow not be permitted to carry passengers because of that higher risk.
That said, if an otherwise airworthy aircraft becomes a useless ball of aluminum at the hands of this pilot, my conscience is clear. I expended effort to mentor a better appreciation for good technique, willingness to learn, and a better attitude. I am convinced it was a waste of my time. I did, along the way though, build a bit of a bond with pilots here who are my peers, or to whom one day I might be a peer.
So that is the purpose of this forum, as I see it.
Dear Moderator, in the other thread, you very effectively fulfilled a request, and a swift and appropriate end was brought to a ridiculous situation. Such worthwhile action on your part might again be worthy of consideration, but perhaps on a wider scale. I suppose it’s worth waiting through a few more posts to see if an attitude improves, but how many chances does someone get?
Pilot DAR
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: London
Hello Pilot DAR
I can't recall having any objection to the particular paragraph you mentioned - if I did please accept my apology as it is in fact quite straightforward and I have no problem with it.
I was banned from that particular thread at my own request!
I really can't see that you would have anything to complain about in regard to this or other threads (apart from the one from which I was banned - I see the comments still flowed after that - which is hardly fair now, is it?)
I have learnt quite a lot - more general advice than techniques per se, from other threads - so please don't take offence.
Flying with other instructors recently has also given me a wider perspective so your picture of me as a puffed up ignorant conceited idiot is not quite correct.
I merely objected to some rude and patronising comments - but now I understand that that is par for the course so I won't take it personally!
I can't recall having any objection to the particular paragraph you mentioned - if I did please accept my apology as it is in fact quite straightforward and I have no problem with it.
I was banned from that particular thread at my own request!
I really can't see that you would have anything to complain about in regard to this or other threads (apart from the one from which I was banned - I see the comments still flowed after that - which is hardly fair now, is it?)
I have learnt quite a lot - more general advice than techniques per se, from other threads - so please don't take offence.
Flying with other instructors recently has also given me a wider perspective so your picture of me as a puffed up ignorant conceited idiot is not quite correct.
I merely objected to some rude and patronising comments - but now I understand that that is par for the course so I won't take it personally!
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 407
Likes: 9
From: UK
Pilot DAR said:
Forgive me, I don't recall that thread so I don't understand your point. I'm sure you're not suggesting the other guy lost credibility just because he didn't agree with you!
The person who started this thread, took that statement for a run, and after another 200 plus posts, lost. He lost any credibility which had been extended to him out of courtesy, he lost any chance of being considered a peer here (even with the newest of newbies) for a very long time, and he lost the privilege of posting on that thread.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Just for the record
David Houl52 quoted Pilot DAR
David Houl52 then said
E Harding then said
I think that E Harding summed things up pretty well
David Houl52 quoted Pilot DAR
If you got a stall warning horn as you gently touched, you probably had a great landing too
My instructor would kill you if she heard you say this!
What control can you possibly have of your aircraft if it is at stall speed? What would happen if there was a problem and you had to apply full power?
Every instructor has their own pet beliefs about what are the absolutely essential rules to flying. They often contradict each other. Come skills test day one is pleasantly surprised that the examiner is a lot more relaxed and will remind you of what really IS important.
What control can you possibly have of your aircraft if it is at stall speed? What would happen if there was a problem and you had to apply full power?
Every instructor has their own pet beliefs about what are the absolutely essential rules to flying. They often contradict each other. Come skills test day one is pleasantly surprised that the examiner is a lot more relaxed and will remind you of what really IS important.
Before the verbal beatings start, I want you to go away for 30 minutes, maybe lie down in a darkened room, and then come back and explain why that posting of yours was a quintessential expression of the purest form of utter bollocks.
Or we can do the shouty-shouty thing now. Up to you.
Or we can do the shouty-shouty thing now. Up to you.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 339
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From: London
Just for the record
At that time I didn't realise that Pilot DAR had a semi godlike status on this forum and I just wanted to provoke some discussion.
Worked a treat it seems! (eharding correct so it turned out - but no harm - I learnt a lot about pprune as a result). Might be a good topic for a social psychology master thesis.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
Likes: 17
From: U.K.
No-one has "god like status" apart from in their own minds of course!
As I mentioned many of us have posted on here for years, you get to know who to listen to and who to ignore. Many discussions do end up slightly circular, but that is nature of such things, especially amongst a bunch of ego filled pilots.
If you are seriously saying that the comments you posted were just to encourage debate, then don't be daft. You, I and everyone else knows that that is a
(Still makes me laugh everytime I read that. I hope you don't mind Ed, but I shall be using that phrase in the future!)
Simple rules to follow when posting here.
1) Don't type nonsense.
2) Don't type anything defamatory.
3) Make sure you can back up any statement you can make with facts.
4) Never be scared to ask questions. There is no such thing as a stupid one. Daft answers maybe.............
5) Keep a sense of humour and make sure you read other peoples posts properly.
As I mentioned many of us have posted on here for years, you get to know who to listen to and who to ignore. Many discussions do end up slightly circular, but that is nature of such things, especially amongst a bunch of ego filled pilots.
If you are seriously saying that the comments you posted were just to encourage debate, then don't be daft. You, I and everyone else knows that that is a
quintessential expression of the purest form of utter bollocks.
Simple rules to follow when posting here.
1) Don't type nonsense.
2) Don't type anything defamatory.
3) Make sure you can back up any statement you can make with facts.
4) Never be scared to ask questions. There is no such thing as a stupid one. Daft answers maybe.............
5) Keep a sense of humour and make sure you read other peoples posts properly.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 420
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From: Right here
My opinion is that the purpose of this forum is to mentor and be mentored.
But very rarely, I think and hope, do people come here to receive instruction, tutoring or mentoring. An internet forum would be a rather bizarre place to come look for that. It gives opinions that one can consider; thoughts that one can take up with one's instructor (if applicable) or consider for oneself, whichever applies; suggested facts that one can look up in the relevant publications. Occasionally, information that is non-critical or trivial enough that one can afford to take it at face value. But mentoring, at an internet forum? Hardly!
Far more often, people come here to give such instruction. In a percieved role as mentors, providing instruction to people who they certainly do not consider as peers, their expectations will most probably clash badly with what they will receive from whoever they attempt to instruct. If one asks a vastly more experienced pilot for advice, one will most likely listen, try to learn as much as one can from the conversation, and easily overlook even a hint of "superior" behavior from one's mentor. But if one comes into an internet forum with some question or comment and gets an unexpected telling-to by some unknown internet avatar, demanding that one shuts up and listens to whatever pearls of wisdom said sky-god generously offers, and where disagreeing means one is a) a disgrace for humanity, b) a danger to onself and everyone else, c) not worthy of even participating in the discussion, let alone to be considered a peer of other pilots, or d) all of the above, one will probably not respond in quite the respectful manner the self-appointed mentor had expected.
And that is a great shame, because people like Pilot DAR or Chuck do seem to have that extraordinarily rare degree of experience and knowledge that make what they say worth listening to as 'instruction' or 'mentoring', even at an internet forum. I appreciate tremendously what they, and very few others, post along those lines. But to appreciate it one has to know this place; it would be naive indeed for a new forum visitor to take that kind of instruction to heart without having taken quite some time to learn who is who on the forum, who is generously sharing their significant knowledge and who is just puffing up their own ego.
Thus, and this is my point: When the view that "this is a place for (mostly) general aviation pilots to discuss general aviation" meets the view that "this is a place for mentoring", the result is an inevitable clash. The resulting carnage, which can hardly even be called a discussion, will hardly give any benefit to anybody, and what is said will very poorly reflect on the attitudes, skills or knowledge of those participating. It is a waste of everyone's time, and a source of animosity for a long time after.
I most sincerely disagree with the quite revolting things Pilot DAR had to say about David above, and think it is a great shame such nonsense is put on the forum. I certainly consider him a peer, and don't think for a moment that anything we have seen of his attitude or flying makes him unsafe. I do not believe for a second you get any meaningful knowledge of a person's flying abilities from a few comments posted on an internet forum!
That I disagree with the landing techniques he expressed, as I understood them, is another matter entirely... But such things can be sorted out through discussion and arguing of various facts and factors, with no patronizing or self-righteous ego bashing involved.
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 339
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From: London
quintessential expression of the purest form of utter bollocks.
Your rules are good. I tried to keep of sense of humour throughout but a lot of the other posts were hardly acceptable I felt and I responded in kind. I really don't think it is just I who needs to apologize!
