Instructor standards falling?
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BSAC instructors aren't often full time divers, but if you want an example, how about you go and tell the divers in Aberdeen who are working and earning other people money that they should be happy to spend weeks in a diving bell and do it for free.
So I would not expect anyone to go and work for an airline free of charge even the same as I would not expect to go and work offshore free of charge. Having worked as a HSE Closed Bell Diver and a HSE Part 1&2 Instructor as well as being a NI and a Course Director recreationally, I am therefore qualified to understand the distinction.....
A flying Instructor is a professional working in a recreational industry with customers who are flying for leisure.
Although I think we have gone beyond the point of reasoned debate on this as we are in territory of judgement being clouded by self protection.
Whirly - You are wrong, and I think that is why your and others judgement has become so clouded and really is a sad indicator of the world now. There are people who just give things away for the good of others. I know of 2 IFR flight planning applications developed and give away FREE with no advertising or other ask-back in the last month alone. The Firefox browser is FREE and is given away for the good of the community. Bill Gates just gave away $26billion.
Believe it or not there are those of us who are still prepared to do something without asking what's in it for me.....
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I think this discussion has probably run its course but it has been very interesting - thank you. Sometimes it is well worth challenging established ideas and sometimes it is worth seeing if there is any merit in these ideas which is of course always much harder when you are already firmly sat on one side of the fence.
A couple of final points
and
Bose makes a sound point in response to the question I asked. FIs are professionals and hopefully whether they are working for free or not they maintain the standard they were taught to set. I agree if you are a volunteer the relationship with your "employer" is different, but it is often not as different as you think. Indeed sometimes volunteers, particularly when they are professional volunteers, are more committed than employees. Do you think a doctors who work for FDOC are less or more commmitted because they give their services for free? Why do you think they give their services for free? Perhaps it is because it is something different, something enjoyable, a way of giving something back which they are happy to do all the time the normal day job pays the bills. Moreover, it is a lot easier for a club to not seek the help of a volunteer in future if he is not up to scratch than to dispense with an employee.
There are clubs up and down the country involved in a whole host of different sports which are very well run and run largely or wholly by volunteers. Closer to aviation, I dont know how many gliding clubs operate - are their instructors paid and if so how? At any rate powered flight schools have always been "potected" by the regulator. Not many pilots are prepared to incurr the time and cost to do a CPL and FI and not get paid. FIs who are not CPLs are a breed not encouraged by the industry.
If EASA change the rules the dynamics of the whole industry may change.
A couple of final points
A flying Instructor is a professional working in a recreational industry with customers who are flying for leisure.
Volunteers cannot be "told" to do anything unlike a paid member of staff, basically you generally have to suit the role to the individual not the other way around. You have to have a code of conduct and the volunteers have no recourse in law for employment rights
There are clubs up and down the country involved in a whole host of different sports which are very well run and run largely or wholly by volunteers. Closer to aviation, I dont know how many gliding clubs operate - are their instructors paid and if so how? At any rate powered flight schools have always been "potected" by the regulator. Not many pilots are prepared to incurr the time and cost to do a CPL and FI and not get paid. FIs who are not CPLs are a breed not encouraged by the industry.
If EASA change the rules the dynamics of the whole industry may change.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 12th Sep 2008 at 08:19.
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View from across the Pond...
Interesting discussion. But the concept of a non-CPL non-IR FI seems a bit silly. So, is PPL considered a "recreational" pursuit, first step on the long road, or a combination of both?
For the pure recreational crowd, we've got two alternatives over here. "Recreational Pilot" with limits on passengers and operations (night, xc distances, controlled airspace, etc.). Trained by full-fledged FI's.
Or "Sport Pilot" trained by sport pilot instructors. The aircraft themselves are restricted, which effectively limit passenger-carrying capability. Operations are pretty much under the same restriction.
Neither license recognized for international use.
But I think that a PPL, with all the privileges it contains (no separate night rating here, it's part of the basic PPL requirement), should be done by someone above that level, especially if it's just the first step toward the ATPL.
No denigrating anyone's skills, experience, motivations, or the morality/justification for compensation, but if you're training potential professional flyers, it ought not be with a PPL. If you want to issue recreational-only licenses and use recreational-only instructors, that seems fair.
Interesting discussion. But the concept of a non-CPL non-IR FI seems a bit silly. So, is PPL considered a "recreational" pursuit, first step on the long road, or a combination of both?
For the pure recreational crowd, we've got two alternatives over here. "Recreational Pilot" with limits on passengers and operations (night, xc distances, controlled airspace, etc.). Trained by full-fledged FI's.
Or "Sport Pilot" trained by sport pilot instructors. The aircraft themselves are restricted, which effectively limit passenger-carrying capability. Operations are pretty much under the same restriction.
Neither license recognized for international use.
But I think that a PPL, with all the privileges it contains (no separate night rating here, it's part of the basic PPL requirement), should be done by someone above that level, especially if it's just the first step toward the ATPL.
No denigrating anyone's skills, experience, motivations, or the morality/justification for compensation, but if you're training potential professional flyers, it ought not be with a PPL. If you want to issue recreational-only licenses and use recreational-only instructors, that seems fair.
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Gemma,
Have to ask two questions...
1. If you're concerned about increasing recreational flying, would it satisfy you to have a "less-than-PPL" certificate available for less-than-CPL FI instruction received?
2. I'm not questioning your knowledge or abilities, but if you feel you have enough of both to be instructing others, why haven't you done the CPL/IR?
Sorry, on our side there are plenty of "recreational" flyers that move up the ratings scale for personal satisfaction and insurance premium reductions, and never give a thought about actually using their CPL or ATP in an AOC environment.
Have to ask two questions...
1. If you're concerned about increasing recreational flying, would it satisfy you to have a "less-than-PPL" certificate available for less-than-CPL FI instruction received?
2. I'm not questioning your knowledge or abilities, but if you feel you have enough of both to be instructing others, why haven't you done the CPL/IR?
Sorry, on our side there are plenty of "recreational" flyers that move up the ratings scale for personal satisfaction and insurance premium reductions, and never give a thought about actually using their CPL or ATP in an AOC environment.
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Some more very interesting posts.
My last one on this as I've far better things to do with my time, such as have a social life!
Bose, you are again trying to make the point that by flying for free it is an altruistic act. Does self protectionism come into it. Well,
! Of course it does. Only an utter imbecile would argue that it doesn't.
So Bill Gates gave away $26 billion. That's nice for him, he's only got another $24 billion in the bank. Firefox is free. Uh huh, but what about the data it can mine for the developers or the other applications that it opens up for them. Most of your examples aren't of altruism, but of loss leaders. A way of marketing or getting a name known for future benefit.
However, it is easy to be altruistic when you have more than you need. It is a totally different situation in this case. Most FI's are full time and therefore haven't got the time to have second jobs to pay the bills. So they do their best to try and stay in the flight training industry for as long as possible.
Most other clubs that are being used as examples aren't full time businesses, but evening or weekend hobbies. Nothing wrong with that at all, but very different propositions from a run for profit business open all day everyday.
If we were talking about a true non-profit making club, then that can be viewed in a different way, but there aren't many of them left in this industry are there?
It is possible to make a living from teaching, but it is incredibly difficult. I tried it or a couple of years. It wasn't fun and nothing saps your enthusiasm for a job more than the stress caused by knowing you won't b able to pay the rent/mortgage, petrol or even food.
When I was a new FI struggling to get by on £9 per flying hour it was incredibly hard. Fortunately for me, my fortunes changed for the better and I can now treat flying as a "hobby" I probably became a better FI once I was able to stop worrying about how much money was in the bank or if I could afford to fill my car up. I know I became far more relaxed as a person without all that stress.
The people I really think are dedicated to the industry are those who put up with sort of crap and carry on teaching for years. That is true dedication to aviation.
My last one on this as I've far better things to do with my time, such as have a social life!
Bose, you are again trying to make the point that by flying for free it is an altruistic act. Does self protectionism come into it. Well,
! Of course it does. Only an utter imbecile would argue that it doesn't.So Bill Gates gave away $26 billion. That's nice for him, he's only got another $24 billion in the bank. Firefox is free. Uh huh, but what about the data it can mine for the developers or the other applications that it opens up for them. Most of your examples aren't of altruism, but of loss leaders. A way of marketing or getting a name known for future benefit.
However, it is easy to be altruistic when you have more than you need. It is a totally different situation in this case. Most FI's are full time and therefore haven't got the time to have second jobs to pay the bills. So they do their best to try and stay in the flight training industry for as long as possible.
Most other clubs that are being used as examples aren't full time businesses, but evening or weekend hobbies. Nothing wrong with that at all, but very different propositions from a run for profit business open all day everyday.
If we were talking about a true non-profit making club, then that can be viewed in a different way, but there aren't many of them left in this industry are there?
It is possible to make a living from teaching, but it is incredibly difficult. I tried it or a couple of years. It wasn't fun and nothing saps your enthusiasm for a job more than the stress caused by knowing you won't b able to pay the rent/mortgage, petrol or even food.
When I was a new FI struggling to get by on £9 per flying hour it was incredibly hard. Fortunately for me, my fortunes changed for the better and I can now treat flying as a "hobby" I probably became a better FI once I was able to stop worrying about how much money was in the bank or if I could afford to fill my car up. I know I became far more relaxed as a person without all that stress.
The people I really think are dedicated to the industry are those who put up with sort of crap and carry on teaching for years. That is true dedication to aviation.
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I will soon be a FI(R). I will also be a PPL . I have a decent day job which makes me a higher rate tax payer which makes going for the CPL an expense I dont want or need. I am instructing not for the money but for the pleasure it will give me in being an efficent and effective instructor.
Clearing the equivilent of £7 a lesson will in no way payback the cost of the instructors course and the atpl exams so why would I want to waste any more on a CPL?
I am sorry if it pis*s' off some of you but my investment was in my hobby. I dont need the CPL for what I want to do.
As to the suggestion that having a CPL proves something - well in my case it would mean I have more money than sense. Besides which I have an FAA Commercial so I could do the CPL if I chose to do so. I object to paying £1000+ for a flight test.
Clearing the equivilent of £7 a lesson will in no way payback the cost of the instructors course and the atpl exams so why would I want to waste any more on a CPL?
I am sorry if it pis*s' off some of you but my investment was in my hobby. I dont need the CPL for what I want to do.
As to the suggestion that having a CPL proves something - well in my case it would mean I have more money than sense. Besides which I have an FAA Commercial so I could do the CPL if I chose to do so. I object to paying £1000+ for a flight test.
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Hey chrisbl give me a clue as to your day job please, maybe I can come along and do it for free? you never know the management might see fit to "let you go" 
Fair comparison no? You never know your job may be just what I'm looking for in a "hobby"!
Fair comparison no? You never know your job may be just what I'm looking for in a "hobby"!
No really I will train to the needed standard then do your job for free 
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Bose x
Hello.
I have read most (but not all) of the posts.
Do you have a specific example of the view that started this thread. I am not going to retort with anything, I am just generally interested.
If you posted it earlier on then forgive me, I will trawl through the posts.
I have read most (but not all) of the posts.
Do you have a specific example of the view that started this thread. I am not going to retort with anything, I am just generally interested.
If you posted it earlier on then forgive me, I will trawl through the posts.
