Instructor standards falling?
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Can you be more specific?
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Where exactly would all the extra money come from to cover their wages then?
Aircraft hire £130
Instructor £25
So.. if the instructors fee is increased to £37.50 he/she has a massive 50% increase. The student however, has an increase in cost of only 8% - hardly noticeable. Quite possibly the club could even absorb some or all of this increase.
I feel students would also be happy to pay for briefings so long as the material was not what they would have already read in their PPL guides and was relevant to the lesson (obviously).
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Actually what I was saying was that the majority of the of the minimal hours instructors were barely fit to fly solo.
Your other stuff I do agree with. The structural "problem" (if there is a problem) with PPL flight training is exactly as you describe it. The presence of a large cadre of low time instructors willing to work for unsustainably low wages has the effect of
- crowding out career PPL instructors, except those who are senior enough to make more from examining, being CFIs etc
but the benefit of
- making flight training cheaper than it would be otherwise.
I am not sure that standards suffer from a "majority" of low timers being unfit. From my experience, they are a pretty good bunch; but that is a small sample.
The problem in the UK is that no-one has managed to run a school which breaks out of the low price model that prevails. In the US, many schools have career instructors; either full timers or part-timers alongside the hours builders; my sense is that FI there get $40 or so per hour after the school takes its cut - and that this rate is charged for ground briefing as well as flight. I think this helps make the balance of flight vs ground training time better. Also, many schools have reasonably modern training aircraft (C172s with G1000, DA40s) so students have the choice between older and newer aircraft. But, in the UK it feels like the student population won't pay for the extra cost of more experienced instructors, more ground briefing, newer airplanes or post-ppl continuation training. It's a difficult dilemma, and I don't know the answer.
rgds
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I too would like to see experienced PPL's teaching, but I don't see it happening. (By experienced I mean people who have done lots in aviation, not just the same local burger runs over and over again). My thinking is this.
Experienced PPL's will not need the money from a second job. Their first job provides a good income, otherwise they probably wouldn't be able to get good quality experience as a PPL. So money will not be a motivating factor.
So they must want to do it for the flying. The trouble is most experienced PPL's will have little interest in flying around the circuit, or doing the (relatively local) cross countries that are involved in PPL training. So the flying will not be much of a motivating factor either.
That leaves the 'reward' of seeing someone develop and learn. Perhaps there are enough people for whom this is sufficent reward to give up their weekends/evenings, but I doubt it.
I imagine an experienced PPL would be happy helping newly qualified PPL's expand their experience and taking on bigger challenges, but not so trilled about goind around endless circuits.
dp
Experienced PPL's will not need the money from a second job. Their first job provides a good income, otherwise they probably wouldn't be able to get good quality experience as a PPL. So money will not be a motivating factor.
So they must want to do it for the flying. The trouble is most experienced PPL's will have little interest in flying around the circuit, or doing the (relatively local) cross countries that are involved in PPL training. So the flying will not be much of a motivating factor either.
That leaves the 'reward' of seeing someone develop and learn. Perhaps there are enough people for whom this is sufficent reward to give up their weekends/evenings, but I doubt it.
I imagine an experienced PPL would be happy helping newly qualified PPL's expand their experience and taking on bigger challenges, but not so trilled about goind around endless circuits.
dp
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I would describe an experienced PPL in this scenario as one who has between 500 and 800 hrs,
In those 800hrs, built up over a long period of time, many bad habits will have been devloped and from my own experience those 'experienced' PPLs with a few hours were the ones on the way to accidents.
If these types of PPLs were to then become instructors, what would the standard be then ??
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Not necessarily - 800 hrs built up over 10yrs+ does not, IMHO, mean they are experienced.
In those 800hrs, built up over a long period of time, many bad habits will have been devloped and from my own experience those 'experienced' PPLs with a few hours were the ones on the way to accidents.
If these types of PPLs were to then become instructors, what would the standard be then ??
In those 800hrs, built up over a long period of time, many bad habits will have been devloped and from my own experience those 'experienced' PPLs with a few hours were the ones on the way to accidents.
If these types of PPLs were to then become instructors, what would the standard be then ??
And that's the bit I disagreed with and thought was controversial!
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In any industry the customer ends up "paying" for inexperienced people. Otherwise you wouldn't get anyone new in any business.
That's just how it works. New engineers, new designers, new teachers, new mechanics etc.etc.
We would all love to only have to deal with people who have been doing the same job for 30 years, but that isn't a realistic propsition, nor is it necessarily the best way to get good service.
There are PPL's out there who would make great FI's, but there are a far larger number who would be god awful.
At least with young inexperienced CPL holders, a good CFI can try and mould them into a decent FI and their recent training and capacity to learn makes them ideal candidates.
Of course there are good "hour builders" (I hate that phrase as the vast majority of FI's do an excellent job no matter what their original motivation.), there are the occasional idiots too, but on the whole, standards aren't slipping in any way.
Have pass rates changed? Are we having more accidents caused by poor training? If no, then how can you quantify a statement as open as "Instructor standards are falling". Frankly a load of bo**ocks if you ask me.
We do need to work out how to retain good FI's in the industry, but harking back to the "good old days" of PPL FI's is madness. That's what scr*wed the industry in the first place and ensured that no-one could get paid enough to even make a living wage.
So what happens, people bail as soon as they can, why? They can't afford to do anything else. End of story.
The simple answer is that people need to pay more for their training. At even £25/hr an FI is cheap compared to plumber or electrician or even a hairdresser and yet people whinge like mad when they are expected to pay a sensible amount for someone to teach them to fly.
That's just how it works. New engineers, new designers, new teachers, new mechanics etc.etc.
We would all love to only have to deal with people who have been doing the same job for 30 years, but that isn't a realistic propsition, nor is it necessarily the best way to get good service.
There are PPL's out there who would make great FI's, but there are a far larger number who would be god awful.
At least with young inexperienced CPL holders, a good CFI can try and mould them into a decent FI and their recent training and capacity to learn makes them ideal candidates.
Of course there are good "hour builders" (I hate that phrase as the vast majority of FI's do an excellent job no matter what their original motivation.), there are the occasional idiots too, but on the whole, standards aren't slipping in any way.
Have pass rates changed? Are we having more accidents caused by poor training? If no, then how can you quantify a statement as open as "Instructor standards are falling". Frankly a load of bo**ocks if you ask me.
We do need to work out how to retain good FI's in the industry, but harking back to the "good old days" of PPL FI's is madness. That's what scr*wed the industry in the first place and ensured that no-one could get paid enough to even make a living wage.
So what happens, people bail as soon as they can, why? They can't afford to do anything else. End of story.
The simple answer is that people need to pay more for their training. At even £25/hr an FI is cheap compared to plumber or electrician or even a hairdresser and yet people whinge like mad when they are expected to pay a sensible amount for someone to teach them to fly.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Well said!
When Bose-X didn't know enough to know how much he didn't know he was screaming on here about how he loves instructing for free....
VFE.
Well said!
When Bose-X didn't know enough to know how much he didn't know he was screaming on here about how he loves instructing for free....
VFE.
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SAS
The title of this thread was a question not a statement and it has encouraged some sensible debate.
As DH52,others and yourself have said we need to pay good instructors a decent wage and the difference in cost to the customer is not much.
After all many schools have smartened up their image by investing in newer aircraft and I'm sure they are reaping the benefits of lower running costs and retaining the type of customers they need who have a substantial disposable income. This is surely the way forward but paying instructors more is not as obviously a tangable benefit as shiny aeroplanes. We now need enlightened management to keep moving the image and the product upmarket.
DO.
The title of this thread was a question not a statement and it has encouraged some sensible debate.
As DH52,others and yourself have said we need to pay good instructors a decent wage and the difference in cost to the customer is not much.
After all many schools have smartened up their image by investing in newer aircraft and I'm sure they are reaping the benefits of lower running costs and retaining the type of customers they need who have a substantial disposable income. This is surely the way forward but paying instructors more is not as obviously a tangable benefit as shiny aeroplanes. We now need enlightened management to keep moving the image and the product upmarket.
DO.
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I know my posts in this thread have been along a different line but I say again - if there any recent reduction in fresh PPL holder competence, it is quite unlikely it can be laid at the door of the instruction.
The whole training business is going about it the wrong way.
Too much emphasis on circuits (lots of sweat, brain just goes dead);
Too much emphasis on the first solo;
Old fashioned navigation skills, inappropriate to present day airspace challenges;
Training planes are mostly wreckage;
Self fly hire planes are mostly wreckage (hard to find non-anorak passengers to come along, so a big chunk of PPL utility value is lost);
Experienced PPLs strongly discouraged from hanging around schools they trained in (because they usurp instructor authority) - this touches on to the "mentoring" project which has been talked about for years, and which most schools will not touch with a bargepole for the reason just given;
Poor marketing fails to attract well funded individuals so only the really keen enter the scene (or the hopeless ones);
Etc.
800 hrs over 10 years is about 5 times UK PPL average!!! That represents a flying budget of the order of £12000/year which is hard to do unless you earn something like £50000 gross, and if you are making that much you are unlikely to have time to do voluntary work; such generosity becomes possible only much higher up the scale
I am not convinced that PPL instructors screwed the business. Admittedly they were around way before my time, but I have flown with a few who were such and got grandfathered to a BCPL or whatever. Some were good, some bad, but all seemed to have done a lot of varied flying. Whereas today's instructor (retired ATPs excepted) have rarely probed the nearest crease in the chart, not because they would not like going somewhere (most would love to) but simply because the syllabus does not require them to.
If there was a golden age of PPL instructors, it happened to coincide with a different era where most normal people didn't look at a 1950-design plane and cringe. Since then, society has changed and those with enough money to fly tend to do other things.
The whole training business is going about it the wrong way.
Too much emphasis on circuits (lots of sweat, brain just goes dead);
Too much emphasis on the first solo;
Old fashioned navigation skills, inappropriate to present day airspace challenges;
Training planes are mostly wreckage;
Self fly hire planes are mostly wreckage (hard to find non-anorak passengers to come along, so a big chunk of PPL utility value is lost);
Experienced PPLs strongly discouraged from hanging around schools they trained in (because they usurp instructor authority) - this touches on to the "mentoring" project which has been talked about for years, and which most schools will not touch with a bargepole for the reason just given;
Poor marketing fails to attract well funded individuals so only the really keen enter the scene (or the hopeless ones);
Etc.
800 hrs over 10 years is about 5 times UK PPL average!!! That represents a flying budget of the order of £12000/year which is hard to do unless you earn something like £50000 gross, and if you are making that much you are unlikely to have time to do voluntary work; such generosity becomes possible only much higher up the scale
I am not convinced that PPL instructors screwed the business. Admittedly they were around way before my time, but I have flown with a few who were such and got grandfathered to a BCPL or whatever. Some were good, some bad, but all seemed to have done a lot of varied flying. Whereas today's instructor (retired ATPs excepted) have rarely probed the nearest crease in the chart, not because they would not like going somewhere (most would love to) but simply because the syllabus does not require them to.
If there was a golden age of PPL instructors, it happened to coincide with a different era where most normal people didn't look at a 1950-design plane and cringe. Since then, society has changed and those with enough money to fly tend to do other things.
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Was speaking to 2 of my 'hour building' instructor mates today. Seems this thread has generated some chit chat at the club. Not surprisingly, great offence has been taken by some of the comments directed towards the more junior FI's who seem to be regarded with such contempt by certain individuals. 'Yes' they are hour builders, 'yes' they work for pittence....no point however in having some prejudiced jibe at them re your views of instructing standards....blame the system!
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Well said!
When Bose-X didn't know enough to know how much he didn't know he was screaming on here about how he loves instructing for free....
VFE.
Well said!
When Bose-X didn't know enough to know how much he didn't know he was screaming on here about how he loves instructing for free....
VFE.
However I do think that FI's are getting a raw deal. I know, how odd for you to comprehend that I am not on this crusade for selfish reasons.....
Hovering AND talking
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Whilst there are people who are prepared to work for free, then instructors will never get a respectable, professional wage - simple as.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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Come on then Whirlygig, explain that one.
There is a difference from a freelancer who is prepared to give there time for nothing to people who would not go near a club in a million years in return for having the favour returned in the future to someone working for free at a club.
But I stand by to be educated by your perspective on this matter.
There is a difference from a freelancer who is prepared to give there time for nothing to people who would not go near a club in a million years in return for having the favour returned in the future to someone working for free at a club.
But I stand by to be educated by your perspective on this matter.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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I know, how odd for you to comprehend that I am not on this crusade for selfish reasons.....
VFE.
Hovering AND talking
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Basic micro-economics, that's all. if flying schools (i.e. employers) know that they can get someone to work for free, then they will recruit that person. If flying schools can't get people to work for free, then they realise they'll have to pay.
I stated a basic premise of supply and demand, sorry that you can't grasp the simple concept. It's a principle that works across all markets, not just aviation.
But it's OK for you to do it, just no-one else eh?
Cheers
Whirls
I stated a basic premise of supply and demand, sorry that you can't grasp the simple concept. It's a principle that works across all markets, not just aviation.
But it's OK for you to do it, just no-one else eh?
Cheers
Whirls
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DO, absolutely right.
Unfortunately, there is an argument that many flying school owners use (rightly as well much of the time) which is that no matter what the schools pay, then frozen ATPL holders will bail for the first airline job that comes along no matter what they are paid by a school, so why should they bother paying a decent wage?
I don't agree, but that is the mentality of many school owners.
The training industry does need to attract more people with cash. The life blood of flying is that it is open to all, but there is a shift towards microlights and a/c like the Ikarus for those of us with less disposable income and we need to attract the more affluent to the more expensive SEP machines.
Why the more affluent? Well, frankly, prices are too low to allow clubs to do anything but survive most of the time, unless they have seperate revenue streams such as mentioned by Colin at Strathaven. So if you can't get enough in to allow you to invest with some surety, then it just won't happen.
I have been in the training iundustry for a few years and I wouldn't invest one penny of my own money into as it is. Not a chance. The roi is rubbish and the risk enormous. I'd rather buy Bradford and Bingley shares to be honest.
IO makes some very good points, though I will disagree about PPL FI's stuffing things up. When people work for for free just for the "love of flying" and because they have a salary from elsewhere they don't really care, it utterly stuffs things up for anyone who relies on their profession to actually pay them.
I had a massive row with a BA training captain when he said he didn't want paying. I said, "no, you'll be paid the same as everyone else, if you want to give your money to charity then fine." He basically wanted to try and jump the queue and get more students and charge less. I even found out he had not charged certain people for his time on flights. I went crackers.
You may say "how nice of the chap, to give his time for free." However, that is utterly unacceptable in a team of FI's, it undermines everyone else and is incredibly selfish. Just because you earn £150K/year doesn't mean you can ride roughshod over others who rely on teaching to earn a living.
A good school has a core of FI's who work together. Parity of pay is an essential part of that. Start having different pay scales based on anything other than experience or subjects taught (IR, IMC, Aero's etc) and you are just asking for trouble.
Unfortunately, there is an argument that many flying school owners use (rightly as well much of the time) which is that no matter what the schools pay, then frozen ATPL holders will bail for the first airline job that comes along no matter what they are paid by a school, so why should they bother paying a decent wage?
I don't agree, but that is the mentality of many school owners.
The training industry does need to attract more people with cash. The life blood of flying is that it is open to all, but there is a shift towards microlights and a/c like the Ikarus for those of us with less disposable income and we need to attract the more affluent to the more expensive SEP machines.
Why the more affluent? Well, frankly, prices are too low to allow clubs to do anything but survive most of the time, unless they have seperate revenue streams such as mentioned by Colin at Strathaven. So if you can't get enough in to allow you to invest with some surety, then it just won't happen.
I have been in the training iundustry for a few years and I wouldn't invest one penny of my own money into as it is. Not a chance. The roi is rubbish and the risk enormous. I'd rather buy Bradford and Bingley shares to be honest.
IO makes some very good points, though I will disagree about PPL FI's stuffing things up. When people work for for free just for the "love of flying" and because they have a salary from elsewhere they don't really care, it utterly stuffs things up for anyone who relies on their profession to actually pay them.
I had a massive row with a BA training captain when he said he didn't want paying. I said, "no, you'll be paid the same as everyone else, if you want to give your money to charity then fine." He basically wanted to try and jump the queue and get more students and charge less. I even found out he had not charged certain people for his time on flights. I went crackers.
You may say "how nice of the chap, to give his time for free." However, that is utterly unacceptable in a team of FI's, it undermines everyone else and is incredibly selfish. Just because you earn £150K/year doesn't mean you can ride roughshod over others who rely on teaching to earn a living.
A good school has a core of FI's who work together. Parity of pay is an essential part of that. Start having different pay scales based on anything other than experience or subjects taught (IR, IMC, Aero's etc) and you are just asking for trouble.
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Basic micro-economics, that's all. if flying schools (i.e. employers) know that they can get someone to work for free, then they will recruit that person. If flying schools can't get people to work for free, then they realise they'll have to pay.
I stated a basic premise of supply and demand, sorry that you can't grasp the simple concept. It's a principle that works across all markets, not just aviation.
But it's OK for you to do it, just no-one else eh?
Cheers
Whirls
I stated a basic premise of supply and demand, sorry that you can't grasp the simple concept. It's a principle that works across all markets, not just aviation.
But it's OK for you to do it, just no-one else eh?
Cheers
Whirls
Quote:
I know, how odd for you to comprehend that I am not on this crusade for selfish reasons.....
No, just egotistical ones. YAAAAAAAAAAWN!!
VFE.
I know, how odd for you to comprehend that I am not on this crusade for selfish reasons.....
No, just egotistical ones. YAAAAAAAAAAWN!!
VFE.
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Just for reference, any instructors making around £10,000pa might be entitled to Working Tax Credit:IR Tax Credits - Do I qualify?, What are tax credits
For single person on £10,000 worth around £600.
For single person on £10,000 worth around £600.