Bye Bye everyone Nice to have known you :-)
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Bye Bye everyone Nice to have known you :-)
As reported in the Daily Mail we are all going to disappear into a Black Hole created by the Swiss on Wednesday.
The Swiss have created a machine costing Billions to create a Black hole.
This has been fought through the courts for fear that when they start it next wednesday we are all going to vanish in a puff of Blackness.
Crazy or what anyway just incase its been great in these forums in my short time here :-)
See you somewhere in the universe
Pace
The Swiss have created a machine costing Billions to create a Black hole.
This has been fought through the courts for fear that when they start it next wednesday we are all going to vanish in a puff of Blackness.
Crazy or what anyway just incase its been great in these forums in my short time here :-)
See you somewhere in the universe
Pace
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However, such trapped black holes are so tiny, they could pass through a block of iron the distance from the Earth to the Moon and not hit anything. They would each take about 100 hours to gobble up one proton.
Having done the calculations that is a factor of ten less then hitting a glider in IMC and a factor of ten more than winning the lottery.
Sorry to say Pace, but I hope you dont win the lottery this week.
Having done the calculations that is a factor of ten less then hitting a glider in IMC and a factor of ten more than winning the lottery.
Sorry to say Pace, but I hope you dont win the lottery this week.
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Not sure whether this was the right forum :-) depends whether its a GA black Hole or not but a Regulation needs to be passed and a special rating the BHR or flying in black holes without a transponder :-)
Is a Black hole open FIR or controlled hole space ??
sorry couldnt resist it
Pace
Is a Black hole open FIR or controlled hole space ??
sorry couldnt resist it
Pace
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Chuck
Its serious the Swiss were taken to court to stop them starting the thing next wednesday :-) what were you saying about the longest flight???
Forget endurance you dont need it in there 50 billion years or something when you come out.
And I dont need to worry about Gliders in IMC after wednesday
Pace
Its serious the Swiss were taken to court to stop them starting the thing next wednesday :-) what were you saying about the longest flight???
Forget endurance you dont need it in there 50 billion years or something when you come out.
And I dont need to worry about Gliders in IMC after wednesday
Pace
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Opponents fear the machine may create a mini-black hole that could tear the earth apart Photo: PA
However, a safety report published earlier this year by experts at CERN and reviewed by a group of external scientists gave the Large Hadron Collider the all clear Photo: PA
A photographer takes a picture of the magnet core of CERN's Large Hadron Collider, Geneva, Switzerland, 2007 Photo: EPA
Critics of the Large Hadron Collider - a £4.4 billion machine due to be switched on in ten days time - have lodged a lawsuit at the European Court for Human Rights against the 20 countries, including the UK, that fund the project.
The device is designed to replicate conditions that existed just a fraction of a second after the Big Bang, and its creators hope it will unlock the secrets of how the universe began.
However, opponents fear the machine, which will smash pieces of atoms together at high speed and generate temperatures of more than a trillion degrees centigrade, may create a mini-black hole that could tear the earth apart.
Scientists involved in the project have dismissed the fears as "absurd" and insist that extensive safety assessments on the 17 mile long particle accelerator have demonstrated that it is safe.
The legal battle comes as the European Nuclear Research Centre (CERN), in Geneva, prepares to send the first beam of particles around the machine at the official switch on, on September 10, although it will be several weeks before the first particles are collided together.
Opponents of the project had hoped to obtain an injunction from the European Court of Human Rights that would block the collider from being turned on at all, but the court rejected the application on Friday morning. However, the court will rule on allegations that the experiment violates the right to life under the European Convention of Human Rights.
Professor Otto Rössler, a German chemist at the Eberhard Karls University of Tübingen who is one of the most vocal opponents of the LHC and was one of the scientists who submitted the complaint to the court, said: "CERN itself has admitted that mini black holes could be created when the particles collide, but they don't consider this a risk.
"My own calculations have shown that it is quite plausible that these little black holes survive and will grow exponentially and eat the planet from the inside. I have been calling for CERN to hold a safety conference to prove my conclusions wrong but they have not been willing.
"We submitted this application to the European Court of Human Rights as we do not believe the scientists at CERN are taking all the precautions they should be in order to protect human life."
Professor Rössler claims that, in the worst case scenario, the earth could be sucked inside out within four years of a mini black hole forming.
The case he and his colleagues have put before the European Court of Human Rights argues that the Large Hadron Collider violates the right to life and right to private family life under the European Convention of Human Rights
It sets out a series of arguments that suggest the collider could produce mini black holes that would permanently come into existence and grow uncontrollably.
But a safety report published earlier this year by experts at CERN and reviewed by a group of external scientists gave the Large Hadron Collider the all clear. It concluded that there was little theoretical chance of the collider producing mini black holes that would be capable of posing a danger to the earth.
It stated that nature routinely produces higher energy collisions on the earth than will be possible in the collider, when cosmic rays hit the planet
But the CERN facility is already facing a second lawsuit filed by environmentalists in Hawaii who are seeking a court order that would force the US government to intervene and delay the start up of the collider. That case is due to be heard on Tuesday.
Large particle colliders have been used by scientists to smash atoms and pieces of atoms together for more than thirty years without causing any noticeable harm to the planet.
This latest machine, however, has attracted such attention because it is the largest and most powerful ever constructed. Built 300ft beneath the French Swiss border, it will fire atomic particles around its 17 mile circumference, 11,245 times every second before smashing them headlong into each other.
The result will, for a split second, replicate the conditions that existed in the moments immediately after the birth of the universe, known as the Big Bang. In a space a billion times smaller than a speck of dust, the collisions will create temperatures 100,000 times hotter than the centre of the sun.
Among the debris thrown off by these collisions, scientists hope they will find the elusive Higgs-Boson, which is thought to be responsible for giving every other particle its mass, or weight.
But scientists admit it could be years before they start producing any meaningful results due to the challenges involved in detecting such tiny and fleeting particles.
James Gillies, spokesman for CERN, insisted that despite the huge amounts of energy the Large Hadron Collider will produce, it posed no risk to the safety of the planet.
He said: "The case before the European Court of Human Rights contains the same arguments that we have seen before and we have answered these in extensive safety reports.
The Large Hadron Collider will not be producing anything that does not already happen routinely in nature due to cosmic rays. If they were dangerous we would know about it already.
"We are now concentrating on firing the first beams around the collider and then on fine tuning it until we can get collisions, when the science will start."
A spokesman for the European Court of Human Rights confirmed the lawsuit had been lodged and the petition to obtain an emergency injunction against CERN was rejected. She said: "There will therefore be no bar to CERN carrying out these experiments but the applicants can continue with this case here at the ECHR."
However, a safety report published earlier this year by experts at CERN and reviewed by a group of external scientists gave the Large Hadron Collider the all clear Photo: PA
A photographer takes a picture of the magnet core of CERN's Large Hadron Collider, Geneva, Switzerland, 2007 Photo: EPA
Critics of the Large Hadron Collider - a £4.4 billion machine due to be switched on in ten days time - have lodged a lawsuit at the European Court for Human Rights against the 20 countries, including the UK, that fund the project.
The device is designed to replicate conditions that existed just a fraction of a second after the Big Bang, and its creators hope it will unlock the secrets of how the universe began.
However, opponents fear the machine, which will smash pieces of atoms together at high speed and generate temperatures of more than a trillion degrees centigrade, may create a mini-black hole that could tear the earth apart.
Scientists involved in the project have dismissed the fears as "absurd" and insist that extensive safety assessments on the 17 mile long particle accelerator have demonstrated that it is safe.
The legal battle comes as the European Nuclear Research Centre (CERN), in Geneva, prepares to send the first beam of particles around the machine at the official switch on, on September 10, although it will be several weeks before the first particles are collided together.
Opponents of the project had hoped to obtain an injunction from the European Court of Human Rights that would block the collider from being turned on at all, but the court rejected the application on Friday morning. However, the court will rule on allegations that the experiment violates the right to life under the European Convention of Human Rights.
Professor Otto Rössler, a German chemist at the Eberhard Karls University of Tübingen who is one of the most vocal opponents of the LHC and was one of the scientists who submitted the complaint to the court, said: "CERN itself has admitted that mini black holes could be created when the particles collide, but they don't consider this a risk.
"My own calculations have shown that it is quite plausible that these little black holes survive and will grow exponentially and eat the planet from the inside. I have been calling for CERN to hold a safety conference to prove my conclusions wrong but they have not been willing.
"We submitted this application to the European Court of Human Rights as we do not believe the scientists at CERN are taking all the precautions they should be in order to protect human life."
Professor Rössler claims that, in the worst case scenario, the earth could be sucked inside out within four years of a mini black hole forming.
The case he and his colleagues have put before the European Court of Human Rights argues that the Large Hadron Collider violates the right to life and right to private family life under the European Convention of Human Rights
It sets out a series of arguments that suggest the collider could produce mini black holes that would permanently come into existence and grow uncontrollably.
But a safety report published earlier this year by experts at CERN and reviewed by a group of external scientists gave the Large Hadron Collider the all clear. It concluded that there was little theoretical chance of the collider producing mini black holes that would be capable of posing a danger to the earth.
It stated that nature routinely produces higher energy collisions on the earth than will be possible in the collider, when cosmic rays hit the planet
But the CERN facility is already facing a second lawsuit filed by environmentalists in Hawaii who are seeking a court order that would force the US government to intervene and delay the start up of the collider. That case is due to be heard on Tuesday.
Large particle colliders have been used by scientists to smash atoms and pieces of atoms together for more than thirty years without causing any noticeable harm to the planet.
This latest machine, however, has attracted such attention because it is the largest and most powerful ever constructed. Built 300ft beneath the French Swiss border, it will fire atomic particles around its 17 mile circumference, 11,245 times every second before smashing them headlong into each other.
The result will, for a split second, replicate the conditions that existed in the moments immediately after the birth of the universe, known as the Big Bang. In a space a billion times smaller than a speck of dust, the collisions will create temperatures 100,000 times hotter than the centre of the sun.
Among the debris thrown off by these collisions, scientists hope they will find the elusive Higgs-Boson, which is thought to be responsible for giving every other particle its mass, or weight.
But scientists admit it could be years before they start producing any meaningful results due to the challenges involved in detecting such tiny and fleeting particles.
James Gillies, spokesman for CERN, insisted that despite the huge amounts of energy the Large Hadron Collider will produce, it posed no risk to the safety of the planet.
He said: "The case before the European Court of Human Rights contains the same arguments that we have seen before and we have answered these in extensive safety reports.
The Large Hadron Collider will not be producing anything that does not already happen routinely in nature due to cosmic rays. If they were dangerous we would know about it already.
"We are now concentrating on firing the first beams around the collider and then on fine tuning it until we can get collisions, when the science will start."
A spokesman for the European Court of Human Rights confirmed the lawsuit had been lodged and the petition to obtain an emergency injunction against CERN was rejected. She said: "There will therefore be no bar to CERN carrying out these experiments but the applicants can continue with this case here at the ECHR."
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They said much the same when they split the atom
come to think of it, same said when the set off the first A bomb
and when the planets lined up a few years back
oh and the 2000 computer bug
If the multiverse opens up then notes to self; "work harder at school", "12, 15, 24, 47, 48, 49 will win the 120million lottery on the 9th draw", "find out when and how you die", "say hi to God"
Think that about covers it.
come to think of it, same said when the set off the first A bomb
and when the planets lined up a few years back
oh and the 2000 computer bug
If the multiverse opens up then notes to self; "work harder at school", "12, 15, 24, 47, 48, 49 will win the 120million lottery on the 9th draw", "find out when and how you die", "say hi to God"
Think that about covers it.
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And I dont need to worry about Gliders in IMC after wednesday
Therefore you have less than 4 years to agree on mandatory FLARM or TCAS/PCAS - before you definitely collide. Remind me does SSR work in a black hole??
Oh dear - back to the drawing board....
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Mind you on a serious note Think of the Atom bomb and these scientists do not really understand what they are playing with or creating ? As black holes are not understood hence these tests.
Oh well there goes my skiing on the Swiss Alps when all the snow vanishes.
Pace
Oh well there goes my skiing on the Swiss Alps when all the snow vanishes.
Pace
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You make a fair point there. The inventors of the A-bomb and the path leading there may not have been as obvious to those without our hindsight. So where might this latest scientific creation lead us? Who knows, faster than light space travel, folding space warp jump, unlimited and green power source.... a weapon of greater mass destruction?
Do we stop science in case of the latter?
Do we stop science in case of the latter?
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Dont Know anything much about black holes other than the debts my ex wife left me in after her divorce settlement.
But trying to get this serious :-) We all know what atomic energy opened up, the good and the bad.
Other than what the professor is worried about ie that one of these created black holes which cannot be destroyed will start growing and gobbling up all forms of matter like some horror movie that Dwarfs Jaws as it grows forever larger until it gobbles up the earth like some Giant Malteser.
What are the potential benefits to makind? from this research ie will we find some new way of travel ? Some new form of energy? propulsion? or is it a massive risk and step into the unknown purely to find what caused the big bang.
Maybe someone scientifically minded or who knows about these things can explain what practically they are trying to achieve
Gone all serious now
Pace
But trying to get this serious :-) We all know what atomic energy opened up, the good and the bad.
Other than what the professor is worried about ie that one of these created black holes which cannot be destroyed will start growing and gobbling up all forms of matter like some horror movie that Dwarfs Jaws as it grows forever larger until it gobbles up the earth like some Giant Malteser.
What are the potential benefits to makind? from this research ie will we find some new way of travel ? Some new form of energy? propulsion? or is it a massive risk and step into the unknown purely to find what caused the big bang.
Maybe someone scientifically minded or who knows about these things can explain what practically they are trying to achieve
Gone all serious now
Pace
They hope by tearing matter to bits they will learn something about its nature and the reason why the universe formed in just the way it did after the big bang (no comments from Chuck please), it could have gone numerous ways, but strangely went the way that just happened to form matter, something Steven Hawkins has mused about, but even he can't figure out black holes and keeps changing his mind about them.
There is no justification for being surprised because if it hadn't happened like that you wouldn't be here to ask about.
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Who will own this black hole? The Swiss or the French. I'm not sure whether to say "May the force be with you" or "Live long and prosper".
Maybe I should hold off paying my energy bills on the grounds that the foreign company that owns them may be sucked into oblivion rendering payment unnecessary.
Maybe I should hold off paying my energy bills on the grounds that the foreign company that owns them may be sucked into oblivion rendering payment unnecessary.
Contrary to opinions above, we do know why aircraft (and birds and insects) fly. The sum of the momentum exchanges between the molecules of air surrounding the object in question produce a force equal to the gravitational force plus any manoevring acclerations required for flight. Since the computation of this is excessive, sufficiently close approximations (computational fluid dynamics) give sufficiently accurate results. Other much simpler empirically derived explanations have indeed been used in the past.
Similarly, the effects of the Trinity Test (the first test nuclear fission 'bomb' in the Nevada desert) performed as predicted with no expectation of 'blowing up the earth' due to a long succession of experiments performed during the Manhattan Project.
The predictions of a mini black hole created by the CERN LHC swallowing the earth is also (due to Stephen Hawking's calculations regarding the minimum size of a black hole for stability, and evaporation time) not credible according to particle physicists. Similar energies are created by cosmic events, but these are not sufficiently predicatable or local as to enable scientific study, hence the building of the laboratory scale Large Hadron Collider.
Slightly less unorthodox is the theory that a mini black hole was created by a random event in the sun's structure at some time during the last century, which explains the observed solar neutrino deficit; and if true would suggest that at some time in the relatively near future it will grow rapidly until the Schwartzchild radius is greater than the sun's diameter. At this time detectable gravitational waves will allow confirmation of whether they travel at the speed of light, and contribute towards formulating a 'Theory of Everything' (although the time usefully available after the event would probably be insufficient to write a paper likely to win the Nobel Prize for Physics).
Put mathematically,
(Probability of the LHC destroying the earth) < (Probability of a glider/B737 collision) < (Probability of a black hole within the sun)
Similarly, the effects of the Trinity Test (the first test nuclear fission 'bomb' in the Nevada desert) performed as predicted with no expectation of 'blowing up the earth' due to a long succession of experiments performed during the Manhattan Project.
The predictions of a mini black hole created by the CERN LHC swallowing the earth is also (due to Stephen Hawking's calculations regarding the minimum size of a black hole for stability, and evaporation time) not credible according to particle physicists. Similar energies are created by cosmic events, but these are not sufficiently predicatable or local as to enable scientific study, hence the building of the laboratory scale Large Hadron Collider.
Slightly less unorthodox is the theory that a mini black hole was created by a random event in the sun's structure at some time during the last century, which explains the observed solar neutrino deficit; and if true would suggest that at some time in the relatively near future it will grow rapidly until the Schwartzchild radius is greater than the sun's diameter. At this time detectable gravitational waves will allow confirmation of whether they travel at the speed of light, and contribute towards formulating a 'Theory of Everything' (although the time usefully available after the event would probably be insufficient to write a paper likely to win the Nobel Prize for Physics).
Put mathematically,
(Probability of the LHC destroying the earth) < (Probability of a glider/B737 collision) < (Probability of a black hole within the sun)
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Gravity is easy - it is just a warp in Space-time. Gravity is relatively weak in our universe at small distances compared to the other forces (e.g. a small magnet can pick up a nail, overcoming the entire gravitational pull of the earth).....So it is likely that gravity is stronger in some other dimension....
Hopefully the LHC will be able to experimentally prove the existence of other dimensions and hence PROVE string or M theory in one form or another. If that is the case then we will be leaps and bounds ahead of where Einstein left us.
Research like this opens up all sorts of possibilities, from exploiting extra dimensions (Warp drives), tapping into zero point energy fields (limitless energy), and hopefully progressing beyond where we are now - which is on the edge of anhialating ourselves in one war or another. You can't stop research like this.
On the subject of Trinity - they thought that that there was a very small chance that the explosion could set fire to the atmosphere. Luckily they were wrong, but they went ahead anyway.
Hopefully the LHC will be able to experimentally prove the existence of other dimensions and hence PROVE string or M theory in one form or another. If that is the case then we will be leaps and bounds ahead of where Einstein left us.
Research like this opens up all sorts of possibilities, from exploiting extra dimensions (Warp drives), tapping into zero point energy fields (limitless energy), and hopefully progressing beyond where we are now - which is on the edge of anhialating ourselves in one war or another. You can't stop research like this.
On the subject of Trinity - they thought that that there was a very small chance that the explosion could set fire to the atmosphere. Luckily they were wrong, but they went ahead anyway.
Avoid imitations
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This has all come at a terribly inconvenient time. I've just put a second coat of emulsion on the utility room walls and it was only re-plastered a fortnight ago.
Bastards.
Bastards.