Research question: how to stop GA non-lethally?

[hardhatter]

Hello all,

interesting question for you I think (hope!):

how would you stop an aircraft, type C-172 or similar, from flying over a military object, entering a no-fly zone, or otherwise, without endangering the aircraft?

I am doing research at my job on how to stop air threats by non-lethal means.

Any ideas? Please serious responses only.

Moderators, if possible, could you make this item a sticky for a few weeks?

Thank you in advance.

Hardhatter

[S-Works]

I don't think you can. You either make it a no fly zone, shoot them down or accept that occasionally people are human and will transgress.

[dublinpilot]

Are you concerned with aircraft accidently overflying somewhere that they are not supposed to, or with aircraft intentionally overlying somewhere that they are not supposed to (with ill intent)?

It's very difficult to figure out what you're getting at here, as you've provided too little info.

[BackPacker]

Just to clarify: is this for things like "anti-terrorism" purposes or to prevent "accidental" infringements?

In other words, are we talking about a pilot who is dedicated to flying over (or into) a prohibited area, or a pilot who simply got lost?

If it's a pilot who simply got lost, we probably have to think about ways to get his attention and show him the way out.

But if it's a pilot who wants to be there, despite the consequences, the problem becomes far more complex. You cannot simply take over control of a light aircraft since most of them don't have autopilots, fly-by-wire or anything. It's all mechanical.

Promises to be an interesting thread.

[hardhatter]

OK, I'll try to provide some more detail:

say for instance a plane is approaching a navy ship, or the like. The commander of the vessel cannot get into contact with the pilot. It could be just a student who is still trying to master navigation and has not seen the vessel, or it could be a maniac who wants to kamikaze the plane, it is not possible to tell.
Anyway, shoot the plane down and the commander could have killed an innocent civilian. But the gentle approach does not work either.
I need a middle ground, to prevent attack, but not kill the pilot.

What do you suggest?

I hope this clears things up a bit.

Please PM if you do not want to tell here online.

Thanks

[danieloakworth]

A navy Captain would normally issue a warning to the inbound aircraft on all guard frequencies, which i assume the student is on (unless his bufoonery knows no bounds).

For a no fly zone, he would be intercepted and escorted out in the first instance. He would only be engaged as a last resort after repeated warnings, including warning shots.

Hope this helps.

[SNS3Guppy]

Sure you're not a terrorist asking how to approach a ship?

If safety is threatened the commander has a duty to down the approaching aircraft.

Shooting to wound and non-lethal means are for bleeding-heart hollywood movies. In reality, there's only one correct answer, and it doesn't involve trying to figure out who dies and who lives; stop the threat.

In the US, around the Washington ADIZ (Air Defense Identification Zone), aside from very well publicized information describing the airspace in advance (this IS the purpose of NOTAMs, Notices To Airmen, after all), red and green lasers are used to paint the pilot and make clear he's in the wrong place. He will be intercepted. If he fails to comply, he will be shot down.

Approaching a boat, such as a carrier, Phalanx CIWS on board weapons, intercept aircraft, and other means exist to prevent an intruding aircraft from approching. In the case of a carrier group, ample means exist to protect the group, depending on the nature of the threat.

Lasers present a highly visible and targetable means of getting an aircraft's attention. Intercepts do the same thing.

You're not likely to find too many cases of a warship at sea being approached by a "lost" Cessna 150. Think about it. How many student pilots wind up at sea approaching a carrier battle group by mistake?

International intercept procedures already exist. One is expected to know them. Failure to respond may mean being shot down. One should know one's airspace. If one wonders into a restricted area or other location where one should not be, one takes the chance of paying the consequences.

What do you want? Giant strips of sticky fly-paper?

[BackPacker]

A navy Captain would normally issue a warning to the inbound aircraft on all guard frequencies, which i assume the student is on (unless his bufoonery knows no bounds).

Well, I don't know how long ago you've been a student but it's been two years ago for me, and I remember we never were on any guard frequency. The only frequency we were on was the primary ATC frequency for the bit of airspace we were in, or when in the Open FIR (this was in the US) on a school/training area air-to-air frequency.

I still fly around most of the time with just one frequency selected and the second radio turned off altogether. Only when I make long and/or overwater flights I have 121.5 selected on the second box. And I still find it hard to follow two conversations simultaneously.

Not to mention that a lot of small aircraft don't even have two radios.

If the captain of a Navy vessel would want to contact an aircraft by radio, his best bet would be the ATC frequency or frequencies that happens to be assigned for that airspace.

For a no fly zone, he would be intercepted and escorted out in the first instance.

That would only work in a no-fly zone where military aircraft would be present or at least nearby. Bombing ranges, aircraft carriers, that sort of thing. But if it's a lone frigate somewhere at sea, before they are able to deploy their on-board helicopter, if they even have one, it's too late.

It could be just a student who is still trying to master navigation and has not seen the vessel, or it could be a maniac who wants to kamikaze the plane, it is not possible to tell.

As others have said, it is unlikely that a student who is lost on a x-country flight would fail to notice a big expanse of water. It would more likely be a more experienced pilot on an overwater flight who saw something interesting and decided to take a look.

(I may have missed something in air law, but there's no blanket rule preventing small aircraft from overflying or circling a warship at sea, is there? Other than rule 5?)

[hardhatter]

To further clarify, an example:

last year, a frigate was approached by a Cessna 152. The frigate was lying in green water, escorting a human-aid transport ship.
The local police chief was curious about this big grey ship and decided to fly over and take a look.
Can you imagine the itching of the trigger fingers of the crew when they saw that plane approaching, not reacting on radio, and started to slow down and circle the frigate? But do you shoot it down or not?
They didn't in fact, but it would have helped if they could stop the plane or at least warn him off in a non-lethal way.

note that this was a lone frigate, so no air support available.

Unfortunately I do not know if the abovementioned incident is public knowledge, so I had to leave out location and nationality.

And for the people who are asking if I have a towel wrapped around my head: : no, I work for the Dutch Institute of Applied Science Technology, TNO, at the department of Defense and Safety. You want more information, PM me.

[Rod1]

Your average student flyes a 152. If a 152 flew into the side of a warship, the student would die and the warship would need its paint touching up.

There was a case in the USA a few years ago when a lost student flew over a military base. The commander of the base was criticised for not shooting it down (which he could have done). His response was, it was no threat.

Rod1

[Pace]

I see your adress is "somewhere over the rainbow" do you really want us to take this seriously?

Pace

[Human Factor]

I need a middle ground, to prevent attack, but not kill the pilot.

You've already answered your own question. There is no middle ground. It is not possible to interfere with a light aircraft in order to alter it's course without an input from the pilot. Your options are either to speak to him and determine whether or not he is a threat or shoot.

There is research going on with regard to remote controlling of airliners. This may or may not turn out to be possible however airliners by their nature are sophisticated pieces of technology with a number of means by which ground control could be attempted. The main drawback is the fact that the pilots would need to know how to disable the system should there be a fault, thereby rendering it pointless. I know which CB I would pull as soon as I got on board.

Light aircraft are far less sophisticated. For example, other than the death and destruction option, the only method of preventing my Yak52 from entering a prohibited area is to speak to the pilot in advance. We do not have an autopilot which can be "interfered" with. In fact, we don't even have a transponder. I'm sure the time will come when that will be mandatory but it will not prevent infringements in itself.

Maybe I need to fit chaff dispensers......

[Windy Militant]

This sounds like a problem given to Second year Phd students to see if the can apply novel or unexampled thinking. Over the years I've seen some pretty weird stuff investigated, it's not aimed at actually finding a solution, but to see how the student approaches the problem.
Off the top of my head how about a frangible barrier say tissue paper fired from a firework rocket, A bit like a Bloodhound but with a bog roll warhead rather than spring steel impactors. If they ignore that then use the Vulcan.

[wobble2plank]

Back in the cold war days there was an 'IZ' zone between east and west Germany. Stray into that without radio clearance and no sqwark and you were shot down. No tears, no warnings, just shot down. On the charts for the area this was clearly pointed out in huge, big, red letters. RTFQ.

As to warships, if there is enough time the helo might well be scrambled to intercept. Amazing how quick you can get those things off the deck. Alert 5 anyone? A big helo such as a Merlin or a Sea Hawk hovering in front of or over a c-152 will give the pilot a shock (hovering over the front will cause a loss of aircraft control in a light aircraft, Sea King had 11 tons of down wash!). Visual warnings (I have hung a blackboard out of the back of a chopper with the correct frequency on it to a lost C-150 who transgressed a military zone!), audio warnings and a good inspection of the aircraft can generally reveal if it is a threat or not.

If it is not perceived to be a threat then the aircraft details will be logged and forwarded to the relevant authorities.

The Americans, generally, are far more protective of their 'zones', especially the CPZ, Carrier Protection Zone. If you are lost, over sea, and see a huge carrier, fly the other way, quickly! They will shoot you down.

Best idea, don't get lost! Monitor guard 121.5 at all times, if not for yourself but to possibly aid someone else. Plan your flight, study the NOTAMS (also a reason for guard monitoring as SAR-OPs are promulgated over guard and there is nothing worse than trying to conduct SAR operations and having rubber neckers in light aircraft in your way!).

Forgot to add, don't forget QRA, they will be on your tail (and shooting past you) very quickly. Get a nice view of a 'type-hoon' though!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I can think of an occasion where I was flying from the Isle of Wight to somewhere north of Southampton and spotted, rather to my surprise, a US aircraft carrier in the middle of the Solent. I'd love to have taken a closer look at it (within the usual limits of 500ft msd), but elected to stay well away given the likelihood of the Captain taking a dim view of my (legal, but perhaps ill-advised) sightseeing.

Which brings up some interesting questions. There was no NOTAM for said ship published. The UK system and, so far as I understand it pretty much the rest of the world, has a system whereby NOTAMs (NOtices To AirMen) are published, and we as aircraft commanders are required to check them before flying. I doubt that the UK powers that be would have objected to, let's say a ½nm TRA (Temporary Restricted Area) around that ship - had that existed then I'd have been able to go as close as the TRA permitted, and the captain of the ship would have known that if an aircraft entered the TRA, it could legitimately have been considered as a possible threat.

A second thought for you. If an aircraft turns up at an airfield without a working radio, there are a system of standard light signals used to communicate with the aircraft. A flashing red light direct at an aircraft in the air simply says "go away and don't come back unless we say you can". This signal would be recognised by any qualified pilot anywhere in the world. Now officially, it has no relevance to a ship but in practice I think that any pilot approaching something and getting a flashing red light directed right at them will get the clear message that they're not wanted. Presumably if an organisation such as NATO wanted to go to ICAO and ask for this to be formalised, there's a chance it might happen. A powerful red spotlight would not be much of a technical challenge to fit to any ship.

Finally, it's worth asking what automatic right does a ship in international or national waters have to exclude light aircraft from its vicinity? If the local police chief has an unidentified vessel on his patch, I'd argue that he has every right to go and take a look at it - he could do worse than transmit his intentions on guard since presumably the ship will be monitoring that, although that itself may be problematic since (a) he may not have a formal police callsign, and (b) even if he does the ship may not recognise it. For that matter, do the local press not have a reasonable right to go and report what's happening on their patch? Local harbourmaster?... I suspect that your military customer might be being just a little precious.

G

N.B. I doubt very much that any moderator will make this a sticky for you.

N.B.B. First year PhD students I'd have thought, by the second year they should be capable of doing something useful, or have been sacked.

[LH2]

Ships already have various means of signalling other craft in the vicinity. In the absence of any supporting intelligence, the biggest problem in the scenario you describe, apart from insufficient coordination with local authorities, appears to be a hot-headed commander more than anything else.

I suggest you speak with an experienced Master (if possible from a non-armed ship) for suggestions on what he would have done. You are far more likely to get anything of interest from him than from a bunch of PPLs.

Now, if you want totally out of the box answers to impress your boss, what about shooting a big fishnet to wrap the aircraft, then inflate a big balloon to keep it in the air. Put some small electric motors on it and you can now direct it back to the coast or to a barge where it can be let down gently. Not as cheap and practical as shooting a couple flares, but hey, who am I to decide what governments spend their research budgets on.


Now for the thread drift of the day:

I see your adress is "somewhere over the rainbow" do you really want us to take this seriously?

Well, I see your handle is PACE. Have you met each other yet?

[Heliplane]

I see 2 issues here:

1) Ensure that the "innocent" and well intentioned pilot is aware of the problems he/she is creating so that corrective action can be taken.

2) Create a non-lethal (or less lethal) way to bring down a real threat.


For (1), the only thing I can think of is to tap into some of the technological advances that all/most aircraft will soon be equipped with. Perhaps adapt the new Mode S transponders so that ATC units, military, police, etc can identify a target and send a message directly and personally to the specific aircraft. Given the available technology and the increasing use of Mode S transponders, this should not be too difficult.

For (2), an aim-able electromagnetic pulse that can be targetted into a very small defined area (ie only affecting the intended target) that would knock out the aircraft's power plant . Sorry - that was all I could think of... Could work ok for a small Cessna but you'd be buggered in fly-by-wire aircraft. Perhaps not completely unlethal though.

The only other suggestion is to do something like in the opening scene to the James Bond film where they wrapped a wire around the tail of Cessna 152 and gently deposited it onto a Florida highway.

[hardhatter]

@LH2: that would put me out of a job!

This problem was given to me as a "nice to have"; not a necessary 'must-have'; the problem was at first only for surface ships and divers approaching, to prevent something like the USS Cole happening again.
To stop a ship is easy...

But the air component was added as an afterthought; I thought there would be no real option apart from signalling, seems that idea prevails throughout the community here.

But you never know, maybe someone has a bright idea?

[BackPacker]

If the local police chief has an unidentified vessel on his patch, I'd argue that he has every right to go and take a look at it - he could do worse than transmit his intentions on guard since presumably the ship will be monitoring that,

If it was an unidentified vessel, transmitting his intentions on guard would warn other aircraft but NOT the ship by default. Maritime radio uses a different frequency band and a different guard frequency, compared to Aeronautical. And even though the spectra are close together, there is no overlap so no ship-to-air channel/frequency by default.

The only way a ship would be able to communicate with an aircraft would be if the aircraft had a maritime radio or vice versa. Those setups are typically only found in military aircraft or vessels, or civilian aircraft that may at some point in time be involved in SAR missions. And you would need to be dual licensed, of course, to operate in both bands.

So the only time transmitting your intentions on guard makes sense is if you know you are dealing with a military vessel. In which case it is no longer unidentified and it makes no sense for a police chief to go look - unless you call it sightseeing.

[BackPacker]

It safely comes down to earth... etc etc.

Sorry to rain on your parade but in the scenario presented (Navy vessel) the aircraft would NOT safely come down. At least not in the current implementation of the 'chute.

The Cirrus landing gear is specifically designed to crumble upon impact, when descending under the 'chute. This absorbs the impact energy and lowers the g forces the people in the cockpit have to endure to tolerable levels.

in case of a descent over water, the landing gear does not crumble and the people inside the cockpit have to endure the full force of the impact. Not good.