Controlled Airspace Transits

[modelman]

Sound professional

I think you stand a better chance of transits if there aren't too many ums and ers.(obvious really)
Had no problems with Luton,Brum,Brize,Cardiff.
Had a long 'standby' with Luton once,soon as they saw me turn as I approached their boundary,they called me up to come on through.

I take the opposite view to Airscrew,plan to get a transit (if this is the shortest route although fuel planning done for the longest route option) ,with skirting around as the alternate.
Zigzagging for your entire journey just to avoid CAS seems a bit expensive to me.
My old CFI always encouraged transits through ATZ's but used to drill it into me to never cross ILS's without talking to ATC.

MM

[Mark1234]

Not sure about the UK, but out here you're supposed (required) to request a clearance by 15 minutes from the airspace boundary, and if departing into a zone <15 minutes, co-ordinate the clearance on ground prior to departure. Seems reasonably sensible. Also, unless specifically within a zone and talking to an ATC unit, we use area frequencies, which 'belong' to a radar unit, but we're free to arrange mutual separation. That said, I know the airspace, particularly in the southern UK is a lot more congested and complex (uk exile).

To answer TangoZulu on gliders and transponders: it's not so much weight as electrical power - we're reliant upon batteries. We also don't have heating (cold batteries struggle), and often airborne for 5+ hours. Battery capacity is a significant issue. There are also other technical problems with carbon composite structures and such to work out.

[dublinpilot]

Not sure about the UK, but out here you're supposed (required) to request a clearance by 15 minutes from the airspace boundary, and if departing into a zone <15 minutes, co-ordinate the clearance on ground prior to departure.

Mark, you might find the UK airspace a bit more tighly packed You could be crossing two different piece of controlled airspace, with an ATZ sitting in class G between, within 15 minutes

[Mark1234]

Understood - I flew gliders UKside before picking up spam cans out here; so familiar with the airspace, but mainly from an avoiding it point of view! I still keep the southern uk chart handy to scare the be***sus out of flying mates

Expectation here is if you're talking to an ATS unit, they will hand you off / co-ordinate further clearance to neighbouring units rather than just leaving you at their boundary.

Interested in this thread as I will be back one day..

[good egg]

London City control zone transits

Just wondering if anyone had any comments about London City control zone transits?

As the airport gets busier and busier it is becoming increasingly difficult for ATC to integrate VFR transits using the "normal" routing up and down the Lea Valley without delaying someone or indeed without having a TCAS RA. (I do understand that some peoples reasoning for using this route is the scenery but there may be some more expeditious routes available...)

I'm interested to hear from anyone who has transitted north-south, or vice versa, who has any ideas about other possible routings through the zone....

How would a cross direct through the overhead suit you, at say 2000ft? Would it help if some VRPs were established? (I'm thinking maybe Thames Barrier or the Woolwich Ferry to the south, Beckton Alp - a disused ski slope - to the north).

Would you still be able to "alight clear" in case of engine failure??

Thanks

[Fuji Abound]

As a regular user of the Lea Valley in the past but now only in the twin I have never found a clearance a problem.

You are correct about the land clear issue - there has been a reasonable amount of comment about whether the Lea Valley provides sufficient land clear options and the suggestion that the CAA do not consider it does. However, I have yet to hear of anyone being prosecuted.

My own opinion is that the reservoirs for almost the entire route provide a very good option (if you had to use them) but equally I have decided not to risk the wrath of the CAA for the sake of the small amount of time saved by going up the valley.

[good egg]

Thanks Fuji

[Ballon de Plomb]

I'm a student at Derby and even I can get EM transits provided:

1. You know what you want, plan ahead and ask in good time

2. Your RT is clear and unambiguous

First time crossing the ILS and being asked to orbit to give way to an Easyjet flight on final was interesting...

Very helpful of them to paint the planes orange I say...

And good confidence building stuff to then carry on with the transit and observe said EJ flight below and to my left on the final part of his approach, flare and touch down.

[Fuji Abound]

Good egg

I am sorry, I didnt read your post properly.

I assume you may be involved with AT?

Your suggestion of a crossing via the overhead is a good one, as is some VRPs.

[hobbit1983]

Well, my 0.02p...

Every time I've asked for a transit from Stansted/Southampton I've gotten it!

Although the caveat is that I've only ever asked twice from either (still 100%!) .

In every case, my requested routing was directly across the runway (i.e. not flying into the final approach track, but rather crossing the runway at 90 deg straight through).

Standard Noise - always found Bristol very helpful & accomodating, many thanks.

[dont overfil]

Don't you love the USA. You only need to make two way contact to penetrate class D. No formal clearance required.
DO.

[bookworm]

Just wondering if anyone had any comments about London City control zone transits?

I make sightseeing flights in the City zone in a twin, usually north to south and back at 2000 ft on the west side of the zone (close to London Bridge). Whenever possible I time the flights for Sat pm or Sun am, when City is closed and integration shouldn't be a problem. I've always had my requests granted. Thank you.

However, I'd be interested to know what the likelihood of such transits are these days when City is open, and if it makes a difference whether you're on 09 or 27.

[bookworm]

Don't you love the USA. You only need to make two way contact to penetrate class D. No formal clearance required.
DO.

The US equivalent of City zone transits is flying over DC. I did that once before 9/11, and even then it was class B. These days I'm given to understand that it's got just a little more complicated...

[BackPacker]

Don't you love the USA. You only need to make two way contact to penetrate class D. No formal clearance required.

In practice, does that difference really matter? ATC can still tell you to remain outside the zone and then you're just as screwed as elsewhere. (I mean you have to invoke your plan B just as elsewhere.)

Oh, and all this didn't prevent an aircraft from flying straight through the upwind track at KISM, at approximately 700 feet, while I was climbing out, at approximately 700 feet, for one of my first solo x-country flights. The distance, as I can remember, was something like 10-20 meters horizontal and maybe five vertical. I was so stunned I didn't even report it.

[stickandrudderman]

I've had several transits across London City in a single, although it's a couple of years since I last tried.
The views are stunning, especially in winter with early morning mist allowing only the tops of buildings to be seen!

[KeyPilot]

Interesting thread, well done to dublinpilot for starting!

In 16 years as a GA aviator, I have never, ever been refused a transit anywhere, and this includes:

Brize (ca. 50 times)
Liverpool (ca. 20, although once when my xpdr was u/s and they were SSR only it required quite some negotiation, which I did to keep my 100% record!)
East Mids (6)
Stansted (6)
Lyneham (4)
Solent (2)
Manchester (2)
Newcastle (1)
Teeside (or whatever the hell they're called nowadays) (1)
Heathrow (1)

Indeed, I transited Stansted twice on Tuesday evening when the R/T loading was very heavy indeed.

Maybe I am just lucky, however I do have a specific plan to get the clearance I want:

- always make the initial call e.g. "Essex G-ABCD for transit"
- keep R/T punchy like theirs: clear, concise, highest word rate possible without sacrificing audibility; this gives ATC the "warm feeling" that you and them are on the same page
- as someone else has said, think intelligently how their airspace works and make sure your routing is likely to fit in
- try to "suggest" the clearance to them in your request, again to give them the warm feeling that you know what day of the week it is, and you're not going to cause them problems

Let's be honest, some (most?) GA R/T is very, very slow, inaccurate and repetitive and I am frankly not surprised that many clearances are denied. Think of it legalistically and in "us and them" terms and be denied; think of it as negotiating with another human being to achieve each other's objectives, and I believe you will be surprised how often the doors are opened!

[M609]

Let's be honest, some (most?) GA R/T is very, very slow, inaccurate and repetitive and I am frankly not surprised that many clearances are denied.

I've noted (as a Norwegian atco) that quite a few Britons flyging abroad in singles have a fairly poor RT standard. Most are very good, but some are really bad. I actually expected more given the fact that you are lucky enough to have your first language as the "international aviation standard" (Forgetting the "french is allso a ICAO language" debate for one minute)

Some of the Germans I work may barely manage the ICAO level 4 test, but the R/T is good, clear and concise.


...crawling back under my rock.....

[KeyPilot]

M609 you are absolutely right, so no need to crawl under any rocks!

I actually believe that having English as a first language can be a disadvantage for good R/T, as it requires a conscious effort to be structured and leaves open the possibility of lapsing into telling one's life story over the airwaves. Where English is a second langauge, there is more tendency to stick to the standard that has been learned.

Does anyone else agree (or otherwise) with this observation/reasoning?

[hegemon88]

Luton and Stansted zone transit

Hi everyone!

Not sure whether reviving this thread in such a way I will get my post noticed but here goes. I am a PPL based near the Stansted zone and I'm after some suggestions (ideally from relevant ATC unit if you guys read this thread?) as to the VFR routes through the Stansted and Luton CTRs which are easiest to handle for the controllers and maximise the chance of me getting the clearance. My initial guess would be to cross at a right angle to the extended rwy centreline, any other suggestions for me to take into account? Goes without saying that I read the thread, will call as early before the zone boundary as possible, have a plan B, think before I transmit etc. etc. Before anyone asks, I am not trying to save 5 minutes of flying time (which I may not) but am after the extraordinary views and a sense of achievement after the successful transit

So, any suggestions gratefully received!

Thanks,



H88

[piperboy84]

Is there any big UK airports with a "Special Flight Rules" transition like Los Angeles International has, which basically involves a common squawk code and if i remember rightly it was 4500 ft southbound and 5500 northbound with a common traffic announce frequency with no controllers involved, it worked very efficiently and what a view crossing right over the the guts of LAX in class B. I even saw Air Force one parked up waiting for clinton