Highland Flying School - Opinions?? (Merged)
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say again slowly,
gla-jax just said it would not be anywhere as cheap as HFS and he is right. LE may be "realistic" as you say and there may be no fat on it ( leased aircraft perhaps?) but £150 per hour for a PA28 plus £25 per hour for an instructor ain't cheap, even with a landing card..
You also mentioned a simulator in your post, what has that got to do with the hourly rate? I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong but I believe LE charge an annual membership fee then if you wish to use the simulator you pay an additional annual fee for "unlimited" simulator use subject to booking restrictions to ensure fair use. However you pay per hour for your simulator instructor on top of that ...yes?
I am not judging the sim use arrangement , just saying that the sim is not a facility paid for by your hourly rate on the aircraft. Nor for that matter is a pilot shop. By the way, HFS had a simulator at Stornoway and they also had a pilot shop.
I happen to think that Allan does a great job at LE and that LE is a great club professionally run for its members. But it is expensive , lets not kid ourselves. It may be no more or less expensive than others now that HFS have gone but that is not gla-lax's issue.
If HAC is really going to mean LE then HAC members better get used to it costing a lot more than many of them are used to. The passing of HFS was not a good thing for HAC as many ordinary members of HAC are about to find out.
Should I now reach for my flak jacket?
How's that? LE aren't the cheapest, but having had a small hand in the pricing structure I can assure you that there isn't exactly any fat there. LE simply charge a realistic price, something that most clubs/schools don't do.
You also mentioned a simulator in your post, what has that got to do with the hourly rate? I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong but I believe LE charge an annual membership fee then if you wish to use the simulator you pay an additional annual fee for "unlimited" simulator use subject to booking restrictions to ensure fair use. However you pay per hour for your simulator instructor on top of that ...yes?
I am not judging the sim use arrangement , just saying that the sim is not a facility paid for by your hourly rate on the aircraft. Nor for that matter is a pilot shop. By the way, HFS had a simulator at Stornoway and they also had a pilot shop.
I happen to think that Allan does a great job at LE and that LE is a great club professionally run for its members. But it is expensive , lets not kid ourselves. It may be no more or less expensive than others now that HFS have gone but that is not gla-lax's issue.
If HAC is really going to mean LE then HAC members better get used to it costing a lot more than many of them are used to. The passing of HFS was not a good thing for HAC as many ordinary members of HAC are about to find out.
Should I now reach for my flak jacket?
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Any business has to make sure that the total amount coming in balances the books. In any company there will be certain departments or products that make enough to subsidise the rest.
Simply put, the sim doesn't have anything to do with the hourly rate, but if there is money in the bank, then that can be used to buy new equipment or upgrade the facilities.
The sim was a huge bone of contention amongst the instructors. Especially when it came to pay.
FI's should be paid whenever they are teaching. It doesn't matter if it's in the sim or in the aircraft. It also matters not a jot if the hours are loggable or not.
What you are paying for is the knowledge and experience.
Is LE cheap? Nope. Is it stable and provide good facilities? Yes.
What's more important long term? Well equipped aircraft, stability and good facilities or paying a couple of quid less an hour?
If you knew how parlous the state of most school/club finances are, then you'd also wish for more clubs like LE.
It isn't the cheapest, but then again why do people still buy food at Marks and Spencers rather than Tesco's Value?
I know what I'd rather eat and which club I'd rather fly at.
The proof in the pricing structure is that LE is growing and HFS is gone. Harsh, but this is reality, not some utopian ideal where we could all fly brand new aircraft for £3/hr.
Simply put, the sim doesn't have anything to do with the hourly rate, but if there is money in the bank, then that can be used to buy new equipment or upgrade the facilities.
The sim was a huge bone of contention amongst the instructors. Especially when it came to pay.
FI's should be paid whenever they are teaching. It doesn't matter if it's in the sim or in the aircraft. It also matters not a jot if the hours are loggable or not.
What you are paying for is the knowledge and experience.
Is LE cheap? Nope. Is it stable and provide good facilities? Yes.
What's more important long term? Well equipped aircraft, stability and good facilities or paying a couple of quid less an hour?
If you knew how parlous the state of most school/club finances are, then you'd also wish for more clubs like LE.
It isn't the cheapest, but then again why do people still buy food at Marks and Spencers rather than Tesco's Value?
I know what I'd rather eat and which club I'd rather fly at.
The proof in the pricing structure is that LE is growing and HFS is gone. Harsh, but this is reality, not some utopian ideal where we could all fly brand new aircraft for £3/hr.
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Say again,
It's interesting that in spite of me stating clearly that I was not judging the simulator policy that you still felt the need to defend it !
As for growth and stability...HFS was there for about 8 years, let's see how long LE is here before we start preaching about business economics. One of the biggest causes of company failure is expanding too rapidly
I say good luck to LE, not my cup of tea but who knows their model may be the future. For my part I prefer the balance of the noise to be engines running rather than cash registers ringing (£5 to rent a headset anyone.... Ring a bell? ).
It's interesting that in spite of me stating clearly that I was not judging the simulator policy that you still felt the need to defend it !
As for growth and stability...HFS was there for about 8 years, let's see how long LE is here before we start preaching about business economics. One of the biggest causes of company failure is expanding too rapidly
I say good luck to LE, not my cup of tea but who knows their model may be the future. For my part I prefer the balance of the noise to be engines running rather than cash registers ringing (£5 to rent a headset anyone.... Ring a bell? ).
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As do I. The simple facts of business are regularily ignored by flying schools, as shown by the constant death and rebirth of schools.
Whilst clubs tend to stay around, how many flying schools have you seen survive for more than 30 years? Not a massive number.
LE has had an interesting birth. Despite being born at an airfield where there was well established competition on one side and another new entrant that had 20x the funding on the other, LE is still going and growing. Not massively, but steadily.
The flash mob fell at the wayside taking a lot of people's money with them as I'm sure you are aware.
I know a little about business economics, from having worked in the flight training business for a long time, having a masters in aviation management and having run my own successful business in another field. Whilst there are things that happen unexpectedly, the simple truth of it is that flying clubs are unstable because few run them properly and there are too many people involved for the love of flying without enough knowledge of economics.
Passion is great, but you need to keep the books balanced as well.
Why is the light aircraft industry in such a mess? Because they are too many people cutting eachothers throats and not looking at the bigger picture.
What is your cup of tea then? Cheap but unstable and with no money for inward investment, or a non profit making organisation that charges a bit more and can actually provide good facilities?
Hmm, let me think...........
Whilst clubs tend to stay around, how many flying schools have you seen survive for more than 30 years? Not a massive number.
LE has had an interesting birth. Despite being born at an airfield where there was well established competition on one side and another new entrant that had 20x the funding on the other, LE is still going and growing. Not massively, but steadily.
The flash mob fell at the wayside taking a lot of people's money with them as I'm sure you are aware.
I know a little about business economics, from having worked in the flight training business for a long time, having a masters in aviation management and having run my own successful business in another field. Whilst there are things that happen unexpectedly, the simple truth of it is that flying clubs are unstable because few run them properly and there are too many people involved for the love of flying without enough knowledge of economics.
Passion is great, but you need to keep the books balanced as well.
Why is the light aircraft industry in such a mess? Because they are too many people cutting eachothers throats and not looking at the bigger picture.
What is your cup of tea then? Cheap but unstable and with no money for inward investment, or a non profit making organisation that charges a bit more and can actually provide good facilities?
Hmm, let me think...........
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What is your cup of tea then? Cheap but unstable and with no money for inward investment, or a non profit making organisation that charges a bit more and can actually provide good facilities?
I understand and broadly agree with much of what you say, it isn't rocket science after all. But expensive does not necessarily mean better, nor does it necessarily mean inward investment. In my experience there are no philanthropists in aviation ( or any other business) , everyone who takes the time to run a business expects a return. Inward investment is intended to grow the business and hence increase the return. Financial management 101, businesses are not your friend, they are their to make money. My kids worked that out very quickly
, that's ok of course, it's how the world works. As I have said already, I think LE are a professional and friendly organisation. But please don't try to suggest that their model makes them a paragon of virtue in the aviation industry. They are a business who charge what the market is prepared to pay just like any other business. I do however question how long their market will be prepared to pay the rates they charge for a dual PPL lesson in a PA28 regardless of how well equipped it is. Having said that it certainly helps to encourage cost sharing between pilots which in turn burns more hours! So maybe it does have merits. Time will tell of course.
As for my cup of tea....I prefer coffee but not at £1.50 a cup Italian or otherwise....
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I take you aren't quite understanding the point or concept of a non-profit making organisation.
Profit is made, but it is reinvested, so that the books show 0 profit.
It is an interesting model and so far seems to be working. LE is a business only in the way that it has to be organised to make sure the books balance and that there is control over what is happening.
The main problems in the flying world are that clubs are usually rife with ego's and in fighting and flying schools are walking a financial tightrope as people try to make a living out of something that is just too tight.
The model that LE uses is to try and blend the best bits of both systems and give people what they want.
You can fly cheaply if you want, by using some of the different packages that are available. Now these aren't your standard pay upfront things, but things like pay a higher membership fee and get the aircraft for lower rates. So, if you do enough flying, then you save a whole load. With a couple of the packages if you do more than a certain number of hours, it works out that you are actually flying at under cost price. However the more hours the club does, then the cheaper the hourly rate gets for the club.
It's a win win thing. You can get cheaper flying, but it isn't such a risk for the club or the individual.
What you are also forgetting is the difference between price and value for money. Just because something is cheap doesn't make it better, sometimes paying more is worth it.
If that wasn't the case why do people buy BMW's instead of Hyundai's, after all, they both have 4 wheels and an engine and get you from A to B.
LE has never competed on price and yet it still survives and is far healthier than the competition. Funny that. It shows that the bottom line is less important than the whole experience.
I know I'd rather pay £100/hr for comfortable, well equipped aircraft, than £90/hr for a manky old thing that I'm embarrassed to take my family up in.
Profit is made, but it is reinvested, so that the books show 0 profit.
It is an interesting model and so far seems to be working. LE is a business only in the way that it has to be organised to make sure the books balance and that there is control over what is happening.
The main problems in the flying world are that clubs are usually rife with ego's and in fighting and flying schools are walking a financial tightrope as people try to make a living out of something that is just too tight.
The model that LE uses is to try and blend the best bits of both systems and give people what they want.
You can fly cheaply if you want, by using some of the different packages that are available. Now these aren't your standard pay upfront things, but things like pay a higher membership fee and get the aircraft for lower rates. So, if you do enough flying, then you save a whole load. With a couple of the packages if you do more than a certain number of hours, it works out that you are actually flying at under cost price. However the more hours the club does, then the cheaper the hourly rate gets for the club.
It's a win win thing. You can get cheaper flying, but it isn't such a risk for the club or the individual.
What you are also forgetting is the difference between price and value for money. Just because something is cheap doesn't make it better, sometimes paying more is worth it.
If that wasn't the case why do people buy BMW's instead of Hyundai's, after all, they both have 4 wheels and an engine and get you from A to B.
LE has never competed on price and yet it still survives and is far healthier than the competition. Funny that. It shows that the bottom line is less important than the whole experience.
I know I'd rather pay £100/hr for comfortable, well equipped aircraft, than £90/hr for a manky old thing that I'm embarrassed to take my family up in.
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SaS
You make a good point, there is a place for a quality flying club with decent aircraft, a bit better than the average flying school heaps. For this, I and many others would be prepared to pay a premium.
However upon looking at LE's website I see that they charge £120 an hour for a 152, and £150 an hour for an archer. That is not all that reasonable, the 152 price in particular. Add on £25 an hour dual, £145 an hour in a 152 is expensive.
Where will LE stand on membership fees if they affiliate to HAC? I can't help but wonder if they would be better going it alone without the aero club.
You make a good point, there is a place for a quality flying club with decent aircraft, a bit better than the average flying school heaps. For this, I and many others would be prepared to pay a premium.
However upon looking at LE's website I see that they charge £120 an hour for a 152, and £150 an hour for an archer. That is not all that reasonable, the 152 price in particular. Add on £25 an hour dual, £145 an hour in a 152 is expensive.
Where will LE stand on membership fees if they affiliate to HAC? I can't help but wonder if they would be better going it alone without the aero club.
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Sas,
It sounds great, in fact it sounds like utopia, apparently run by a philathropist who does it all for nothing more than the joy of seeing others fly. Where do I sign?
Silvernapper,
Shhh...don't let the HAC committee hear you suggest bypassing them....
It sounds great, in fact it sounds like utopia, apparently run by a philathropist who does it all for nothing more than the joy of seeing others fly. Where do I sign?
Silvernapper,
Shhh...don't let the HAC committee hear you suggest bypassing them....
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It's not quite utopia, if it was, we could all fly for free!
I'm afraid I have no idea of any of the details of any potential contracts. I know what we did at Perth, but how this particular situation would work, I don't think anyone knows yet. That's all to be sorted out.
It might not happen, but surely it's better for all up in Inverness that they might have access to good quality training again. The current situation is no good for anyone who actually wants to fly.
There will be a huge amount of work and the pricing structure for Inverness might be totally different than those of Cumbernauld for example. CBN isn't exactly the cheapest place to have a clubhouse, parking or anything else.
I know Allan would love to be able to punt a 152 out at £50/hr, but it just isn't possible there. Which is a real shame.
I'm afraid I have no idea of any of the details of any potential contracts. I know what we did at Perth, but how this particular situation would work, I don't think anyone knows yet. That's all to be sorted out.
It might not happen, but surely it's better for all up in Inverness that they might have access to good quality training again. The current situation is no good for anyone who actually wants to fly.
There will be a huge amount of work and the pricing structure for Inverness might be totally different than those of Cumbernauld for example. CBN isn't exactly the cheapest place to have a clubhouse, parking or anything else.
I know Allan would love to be able to punt a 152 out at £50/hr, but it just isn't possible there. Which is a real shame.
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but surely it's better for all up in Inverness that they might have access to good quality training again. The current situation is no good for anyone who actually wants to fly.
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the truth is out
hfs have gone down for a stack load
they have stuffed so many people to what amounts to a fortune
£176.000.00 + whatever quite a few people didn't claim for, or had their claims rejected.
anyone got there money back
not likely.
the good news is that they wont get the chance to rip everyone off again
we are watching just incase
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they have stuffed so many people to what amounts to a fortune
£176.000.00 + whatever quite a few people didn't claim for, or had their claims rejected.
anyone got there money back
not likely.
the good news is that they wont get the chance to rip everyone off again
we are watching just incase
Mod Note: Until such time as someone is convicted of a crime, keep your allegations of criminality to yourself. Alternatively, provide PPRuNe with your real details and we'll pass them on to anyone trying to track you down as part of a legal action.
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well the actual figure is!!!!
close to £220.000.00
visit the highland aero club website for full figures
please note that the two houses that they own are not mentioned
nor are they going to be in the pot to help anyone out who has lost money
shafted!!!! you bet even there lawyer.
and if they think they are walking away I've got a surprise for them
see you soon
visit the highland aero club website for full figures
please note that the two houses that they own are not mentioned
nor are they going to be in the pot to help anyone out who has lost money
shafted!!!! you bet even there lawyer.
and if they think they are walking away I've got a surprise for them
see you soon
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You make some good points, but I'm having to physically hold myself back at a few of the other comments you have just made.
RAF pilot's are obviously the only "proper" pilots are they...........Uh huh. I have a feeling there might be a fair few thousand pilots around the world who disagree with you.
Some might even go so far to call you lots of names as well.
I'm just going to roll my eyes and say "typical military pilot god complex."
RAF pilot's are obviously the only "proper" pilots are they...........Uh huh. I have a feeling there might be a fair few thousand pilots around the world who disagree with you.
Some might even go so far to call you lots of names as well.
I'm just going to roll my eyes and say "typical military pilot god complex."
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ach yer not wrong
just how much money did you lose ????
grammar is not a strong point admitted
but it doesnt take a brain surgen to know when so many people have been shafted
if at the end of the day if it isnt comfortable then so be it !!
however its the truth !!!!!
grammar is not a strong point admitted
but it doesnt take a brain surgen to know when so many people have been shafted
if at the end of the day if it isnt comfortable then so be it !!
however its the truth !!!!!
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It doesn't take a brain surgeon to use a spell checker either. Espeically not when there's a spell checker icon on the 'Reply to thread' box. (ABC over a tick, above the smilies)
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no bearde woman
Any information here is welcome, good and bad, but why not state your case and move on in life. Your repetitive vindictive attacks on the school's owners contribute nothing further and waste space.
I'd love to hear from you on nice flying experiences, worries you have about publications or opinions on flying mags, etc.
Your position as to the now defunct school is very clear, I assure you.
Any information here is welcome, good and bad, but why not state your case and move on in life. Your repetitive vindictive attacks on the school's owners contribute nothing further and waste space.
I'd love to hear from you on nice flying experiences, worries you have about publications or opinions on flying mags, etc.
Your position as to the now defunct school is very clear, I assure you.
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van horck
the truth is now unravelling
i wish that no one who has lost out had done so!!!
and look forward to a brighter future !!!
the facts are quite obvious, even to those who have rose tinted glasses on !!
i am looking forward to some flying in the near future
and taking up the kids for some more fun
i belive that aint far away !!!
i wish that no one who has lost out had done so!!!
and look forward to a brighter future !!!
the facts are quite obvious, even to those who have rose tinted glasses on !!
i am looking forward to some flying in the near future
and taking up the kids for some more fun
i belive that aint far away !!!
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