Highland Flying School - Opinions?? (Merged)
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sick
to see so many losing there hard earned money to support
those who are off to Newcastle with all your hard earned cash
they are not in administration only ceased trading so if you have money in there get hold of the police quickly
or you will lose it 01463715555
those who are off to Newcastle with all your hard earned cash
they are not in administration only ceased trading so if you have money in there get hold of the police quickly
or you will lose it 01463715555
Join Date: Dec 2003
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this will be why
Highland Flying School in Administration?
Highland Flying School in Administration?
I'm glad that I didn't book and organise a trip as it wouldn't have been a case of just driving to Inverness, there would have been flights and accommodation to pay for. Not all of which would have been refundable.
It is a shame that this has happened. As I said before all my experiences with HFS were positive and the instructors I had the opportunity to fly with were all really good. I did the IMC with Peter Brooks as well and really enjoyed his instruction.
I did notice that G-BIIT was recently place on the HFS website under aircraft sales and that made me wonder a bit. Does anyone know what will happen to the aircraft?
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everyone has who paid money in advance
DO NOT PAY UP FRONT
?
If so one does have a little difficulty in feeling sorry for them, I'm afraid.
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To me the size of the above font gives an idea of how irrational that piece of advice is. Had I followed it, now I would have been a few hundred pounds worse off. I paid £6k in advance, for my licence, and I've already used my credit almost completely.
I've already said this on another thread: there are risks and opportunities in paying upfront, just like in any other form of investment. For one club that goes bust, with all the publicity that follows (understandably), how many hundreds of thousands pounds go in and out of clubs' credit accounts without a glitch?
Why don't we stop broadcasting these rather hysterical appeals and let our brain make financial decisions, instead of our guts?
Deeday
I've already said this on another thread: there are risks and opportunities in paying upfront, just like in any other form of investment. For one club that goes bust, with all the publicity that follows (understandably), how many hundreds of thousands pounds go in and out of clubs' credit accounts without a glitch?
Why don't we stop broadcasting these rather hysterical appeals and let our brain make financial decisions, instead of our guts?
Deeday
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I agree with Deeday, paying up front can be beneficial as long as you are aware of the associated risks.
At my local flying club, I always pay upfront, usually about 1000 pounds a week (the weeks that i'm flying, not every week!) using my credit card. It saves me money, allows me to keep control of my spending on 'flying', and is simple convenient as I rent aircraft from a location which isn't permenantly manned.
So in my opinion, paying up front is something you should approach cautiously. You should never be forced to pay up front, you should use a credit card and accept the risks associated.
At my local flying club, I always pay upfront, usually about 1000 pounds a week (the weeks that i'm flying, not every week!) using my credit card. It saves me money, allows me to keep control of my spending on 'flying', and is simple convenient as I rent aircraft from a location which isn't permenantly manned.
So in my opinion, paying up front is something you should approach cautiously. You should never be forced to pay up front, you should use a credit card and accept the risks associated.
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I think the 'rational' view with flying clubs is in the big print. The majority are small businesses and historically have short lives. There is almost no reliable way to get information which proves the financial stability and robustness of these companies. Companies House filings simply do not have the information and are not current enough.
Conversely experience shows that every year a significant number fail and usually take quite a number of pre-paid hours or flying vouchers with them.
So the answer is Never pay up front!
Conversely experience shows that every year a significant number fail and usually take quite a number of pre-paid hours or flying vouchers with them.
So the answer is Never pay up front!
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The simple fact is that if you pay upfront, you run the risk of losing the whole lot.
Flying schools are possibly the least stable businesses around.
Paying upfront is frankly mental.
When I put invoices into flying schools, there is no delay, I've seen too many of them go to the wall and take many people's money with them. I have no intention of letting mine join that horrid club.
But hey, you want to take the risk, go ahead. Personally as someone who's been around flying schools for a few years. I think you're nuts.
Flying schools are possibly the least stable businesses around.
Paying upfront is frankly mental.
When I put invoices into flying schools, there is no delay, I've seen too many of them go to the wall and take many people's money with them. I have no intention of letting mine join that horrid club.
But hey, you want to take the risk, go ahead. Personally as someone who's been around flying schools for a few years. I think you're nuts.
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gasax:
If they're schools masquerading as clubs then I agree because, as SAS says,
But if it's a club that operates as a club (run by a committee of members etc), whatever the inefficiencies and hassles that creates (and there are many...), it's not a business trying to make a profit, so it's a different animal all together, and much less risky for a student wanting to pay in advance. But they are less likely to be offering up-front pay-in-advance discounted packages in any case, so the issue of losing your money doesn't arise!
NS
I think the 'rational' view with flying clubs is in the big print. The majority are small businesses and historically have short lives
Flying schools are possibly the least stable businesses around
NS
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Say again s l o w l y, thank you for letting me know that I'm insane. First thing tomorrow morning I'll seek professional help.
It would be interesting to add up all the discounts that you've missed out in all these years and see how it compares with the max amount of money that you could in theory have lost.
I don't know the numbers, but my impression is that this whole thing is an example of a tree falling that makes more noise than a forest growing.
Deeday
It would be interesting to add up all the discounts that you've missed out in all these years and see how it compares with the max amount of money that you could in theory have lost.
I don't know the numbers, but my impression is that this whole thing is an example of a tree falling that makes more noise than a forest growing.
Deeday
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Deeday, don't mistake me for someone who pays for flying.
I've just dealt with the fallout of people losing money when schools go bust for the last 10 years.
You've been lucky, many others haven't been. I've lost count of the number of people I've met who've lost money, including some who have lost tens of thousands.
Having worked in many schools over the years, I do know how close most of them get to failure most of the time. The margins are tiny.
But hey, since you are basing your opinion based on one persons experience, what do I know.............?
I've just dealt with the fallout of people losing money when schools go bust for the last 10 years.
You've been lucky, many others haven't been. I've lost count of the number of people I've met who've lost money, including some who have lost tens of thousands.
Having worked in many schools over the years, I do know how close most of them get to failure most of the time. The margins are tiny.
But hey, since you are basing your opinion based on one persons experience, what do I know.............?
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I've lost count of the number of people I've met who've lost money
That's all I want to know. I would like to have a realistic idea of what the risk actually is, but I guess I won't get that out of this thread.
Deeday
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Everyone has their own risk profiles. You might feel comfortable risking thousands of pounds, others might not.
The simple fact is, that you as a punter have absolutely no idea of how financially stable a flying school really is.
Most schools use the pay upfront schemes to make up for poor cashflow, essentially you are bolstering them for a short time. However, when the money dries up, then the inevitable happens.
I could easily give you 200 names of people who've lost money, I don't know everyone of course, but it's a sizeable number.
For me the risk just isn't worth it. Save a few hundred quid, but risk thousands.......
Nah, you're alright. I'd rather pay a few quid more per hour.
Though, if you are doing a short term scheme where you are hour building and so eating through the hours rapidly, then that is a bit different, but paying upfront for a PPL course and then doing a couple of hours a week........Utterly mental. Leave it in the bank.
You can try and convince yourself that it is worth it, but there is a reason that people like me and others who've been around a while bang on about not paying upfront.
I have nothing to gain or lose from giving that advice and hopefully some might see it and not lose money. Not everyone will of course, but the fewer who get shafted the better in my eyes.
The simple fact is, that you as a punter have absolutely no idea of how financially stable a flying school really is.
Most schools use the pay upfront schemes to make up for poor cashflow, essentially you are bolstering them for a short time. However, when the money dries up, then the inevitable happens.
I could easily give you 200 names of people who've lost money, I don't know everyone of course, but it's a sizeable number.
For me the risk just isn't worth it. Save a few hundred quid, but risk thousands.......
Nah, you're alright. I'd rather pay a few quid more per hour.
Though, if you are doing a short term scheme where you are hour building and so eating through the hours rapidly, then that is a bit different, but paying upfront for a PPL course and then doing a couple of hours a week........Utterly mental. Leave it in the bank.
You can try and convince yourself that it is worth it, but there is a reason that people like me and others who've been around a while bang on about not paying upfront.
I have nothing to gain or lose from giving that advice and hopefully some might see it and not lose money. Not everyone will of course, but the fewer who get shafted the better in my eyes.
Red On, Green On
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I would like to have a realistic idea of what the risk actually is, but I guess I won't get that out of this thread.
It's a gamble. You have say £6,000 to pay up front, they say you'll save perhaps £750. Can you afford to lose that £6,000, or a large part of it? What happens if you lose your medical category, temporarily or for ever?
Even if the risk is 100,000 to 1, if you are that one loser, you lose it all, not a percentage of it.
Leave lending money to banks - they are very experienced at it, after all
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THe distinction between a 'proper' flying club and a busness pretending to be one is imjportant. I'm a member of the Scottish Aero Club and yes I feel any money I pay them is pretty safe. But few clubs (in fact very few clubs) actually conduct their own training (without having a contracted training provider). Of the very few that do probably the risk is much less.
But it is very difficult to unravel the relationships between who owns the aircraft, what the 'club' actually is and who/what the training ptovider is/are. In a context where punters are simpy walking in the door without any of the experience and background which many of us have acquired it is a subtlety which 99% will be unable to distinguish.
So the advice remanins as above.
But it is very difficult to unravel the relationships between who owns the aircraft, what the 'club' actually is and who/what the training ptovider is/are. In a context where punters are simpy walking in the door without any of the experience and background which many of us have acquired it is a subtlety which 99% will be unable to distinguish.
So the advice remanins as above.
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sound advice,say again slowly !!
there are no winners only losers. except for the owners who were taking money from people up to the end in full knowledge that they were insolvent.
instructors wages bouncing
kids life savings up the spout
careers up in the air
all sad
hopefully all will turn around for those who have lost out !!
instructors wages bouncing
kids life savings up the spout
careers up in the air
all sad
hopefully all will turn around for those who have lost out !!
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Dee Day,
It's fair to say that SAS has a valid point, probably amassed from years of experience dealing with students at various flying schools.
Like many others I have potentially lost 1 thousand pounds due to HFS going into administration. I never bought the ten hour package to save money it was more of an impulse buy and in the end never needed it as I subsequently bought my own aircraft.
I don't really have anything bad to say about the school itself as I converted a NPPL (M) to a NPPL (SSEP) and had a painless experience doing so. The instructors were great lads some who have moved onto bigger and better things.
The thing that thoroughly pissed me off is when I asked for my money back I was fed a crock of lies to try and postpone the time for them to give me it back. I even offered them 100 quid off the sum total as a token gesture for messing them about, little did I know it was all in Vain and I am still waiting for my money. I was even told by Maggie that the cheque was in the post, what a bear face lie that was as it never did arrive.
There has been a few sympathy post for the Brooks on another thread and whilst I don't wish them bad I still think they have been less than transparent and have deceived many of their once loyal customers. I hope I can get my money back, but if I don't it would have been a valuable lesson and one I will be passing onto future pilots.
As a footnote how long and convoluted is the process of getting your money back if you have paid by Visa debit card. Does the bank have to prove you have not flown the hours off. Advice appreciated.
Regards MF26
It's fair to say that SAS has a valid point, probably amassed from years of experience dealing with students at various flying schools.
Like many others I have potentially lost 1 thousand pounds due to HFS going into administration. I never bought the ten hour package to save money it was more of an impulse buy and in the end never needed it as I subsequently bought my own aircraft.
I don't really have anything bad to say about the school itself as I converted a NPPL (M) to a NPPL (SSEP) and had a painless experience doing so. The instructors were great lads some who have moved onto bigger and better things.
The thing that thoroughly pissed me off is when I asked for my money back I was fed a crock of lies to try and postpone the time for them to give me it back. I even offered them 100 quid off the sum total as a token gesture for messing them about, little did I know it was all in Vain and I am still waiting for my money. I was even told by Maggie that the cheque was in the post, what a bear face lie that was as it never did arrive.
There has been a few sympathy post for the Brooks on another thread and whilst I don't wish them bad I still think they have been less than transparent and have deceived many of their once loyal customers. I hope I can get my money back, but if I don't it would have been a valuable lesson and one I will be passing onto future pilots.
As a footnote how long and convoluted is the process of getting your money back if you have paid by Visa debit card. Does the bank have to prove you have not flown the hours off. Advice appreciated.
Regards MF26
I suspect the owners are the biggest losers. I doubt they got anything out. Probably trying to keep going, until their credit is stopped. I'm lucky. I'd have lost a lot if this had happened a year ago. I know people who have lost money they cannot afford to lose, but I still feel sorry for Maggie and Peter, with two small kids, and their business gone.
My relationship with them was strictly customer to business.
My relationship with them was strictly customer to business.
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Way too much emotion involved in whether the decision to pay up front is good or bad. There is no right or wrong answer, it is a risk issue and, as you all know, different folks have different attitudes to risk.
So please stop the lectures that it is wrong for everyone to pay up front, for some the risk is worth it and it is condescending and arrogant to hurl insults at those who decide to take the risk.
Think of the extra you pay by not paying up front as the cost of insuring you don’t lose your money. EG in the example given the £750 potential saving is the insurance premium to cover £6000, at 12.5% it’s a heavy insurance premium. Now, on that basis make your decision, simple really when you take the emotion out.
There are of course other steps that can be taken to minimise the risk where you are dealing with a limited company. Although the information held is not extensive and is a bit dated it can provide a flavour of the school’s standing for next to nothing.
SAS, I am sure those who choose to pay up front respect your view on not paying up front and understand your logic, so please try to respect the intelligence of others who don’t think as you do. You don’t have a monopoly on good ideas!
So please stop the lectures that it is wrong for everyone to pay up front, for some the risk is worth it and it is condescending and arrogant to hurl insults at those who decide to take the risk.
Think of the extra you pay by not paying up front as the cost of insuring you don’t lose your money. EG in the example given the £750 potential saving is the insurance premium to cover £6000, at 12.5% it’s a heavy insurance premium. Now, on that basis make your decision, simple really when you take the emotion out.
There are of course other steps that can be taken to minimise the risk where you are dealing with a limited company. Although the information held is not extensive and is a bit dated it can provide a flavour of the school’s standing for next to nothing.
SAS, I am sure those who choose to pay up front respect your view on not paying up front and understand your logic, so please try to respect the intelligence of others who don’t think as you do. You don’t have a monopoly on good ideas!