Overhead Joins
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Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Hong Kong
Obviously there is no need for an overhead join at a controlled field where the tower guy can give you a straight in approach.
I find the OHJ very useful though when arriving at unfamiliar fields. It buys time to assess the lie of the land ( or even the location of the runway).
On one occasion my GPS was convinced i was approaching my destination,but I simply could not locate the field. As I crossed a a safe height the field came into view and I was able to descend and join at crosswind.
Best,
Sicknote
I find the OHJ very useful though when arriving at unfamiliar fields. It buys time to assess the lie of the land ( or even the location of the runway).
On one occasion my GPS was convinced i was approaching my destination,but I simply could not locate the field. As I crossed a a safe height the field came into view and I was able to descend and join at crosswind.
Best,
Sicknote
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 62
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From: No idea - what does the GPS say?
Probably one of the most useful tips I ever gleaned from my instructor about OHJ's was that you can stay up there orbitting until you have built a complete picture of what is going on. There is no urgency to get down to circuit height and slot. Where I learnt was a particularly busy airfield, so knowing that I could stay up there until I had absolute situational awareness, knowing where everybody else was, and being able to plan my descent with this info really helped my confidence level, and ensured that I did'nt cut in front of anyone.
Nowadays, I can understand why some people want to get down quickly, but it's usually down to the high cost of renting the average spam can. I've actually heard someone say that they will avoid an OHJ, because it will add £30:00 to the bill
Nowadays, I can understand why some people want to get down quickly, but it's usually down to the high cost of renting the average spam can. I've actually heard someone say that they will avoid an OHJ, because it will add £30:00 to the bill
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: SoCal
There is a US variation on the OHJ theme, called the 'teardrop arrival', which, IMHO, works a bit better.
Essentially, you overfly the rwy 1000ft above pattern alt (or at whichever alt is published) midfield and determine wind and rwy in use. You then proceed outside the pattern and initiate a descending turn against the direction of traffic. This way, you have anyone else entering the pattern in sight, but do not conflict as you are outside. Once at pattern alt you proceed to do a standard 45deg join.
The main advantage of this is that you have all other traffic in view at all times and do not have to cross the departure end of the rwy. Due to this, it is also very easy to adjust to other traffic entering on the 45 - you simply extend or shorten your descending turn.
Essentially, you overfly the rwy 1000ft above pattern alt (or at whichever alt is published) midfield and determine wind and rwy in use. You then proceed outside the pattern and initiate a descending turn against the direction of traffic. This way, you have anyone else entering the pattern in sight, but do not conflict as you are outside. Once at pattern alt you proceed to do a standard 45deg join.
The main advantage of this is that you have all other traffic in view at all times and do not have to cross the departure end of the rwy. Due to this, it is also very easy to adjust to other traffic entering on the 45 - you simply extend or shorten your descending turn.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 343
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From: Pembrokeshire UK
I don't get it? 
If you have ATC they will give you the runway in use, cct direction, joining instructions, so no need for an OHJ.
At an uncontrolled field where aircraft with radios are operating, a call on the new UK unicom 135.475 should provide the same information. So no need for an OHJ.
Armed with the full airfield information obtained from ATC (or French style from other flyers,) it is easy to position yourself to join downwind at cct height.
Why perform a potentially dangerous manoeuvre when a bit of prior reconnaissance avoids it.
Edited to say that my instructor thinks few UK ppls are familiar with the use of unicom, so they are more likely to do an OHJ instead.
If you have ATC they will give you the runway in use, cct direction, joining instructions, so no need for an OHJ.
At an uncontrolled field where aircraft with radios are operating, a call on the new UK unicom 135.475 should provide the same information. So no need for an OHJ.
Armed with the full airfield information obtained from ATC (or French style from other flyers,) it is easy to position yourself to join downwind at cct height.
Why perform a potentially dangerous manoeuvre when a bit of prior reconnaissance avoids it.
Edited to say that my instructor thinks few UK ppls are familiar with the use of unicom, so they are more likely to do an OHJ instead.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 555
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From: Cilboldentune, Britannia
Missing the point.
The original poster was just asking for more information about the OHJ. I believe that everyone flying in the UK should have a thorough understanding of the OHJ procedure - OK so you can circumvent it when ATC is available etc. But, as has been pointed out in other posts, at airfields like Shoreham, Goodwood you may be asked to do an OHJ and it would make sense to know what to do and not make a fool of yourself.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 343
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From: Pembrokeshire UK
jxk good point, essential to know how to do an OHJ if required. But it would be interesting to have an explanation from Shoreham & Gloucester ATC as to why they prefer OHJs.
Last time I visited Shoreham on a sunny Sunday it was seriously busy. Joining overhead felt like diving into rush hour traffic at Hyde park.
Quite scary really and did not seem a safe procedure, good lookout being vital.
Perhaps that is the reason some ATC units use OHJs, it shifts safety responsibility more to the pilots and reduces stress on the controller?
Last time I visited Shoreham on a sunny Sunday it was seriously busy. Joining overhead felt like diving into rush hour traffic at Hyde park.
Quite scary really and did not seem a safe procedure, good lookout being vital.
Perhaps that is the reason some ATC units use OHJs, it shifts safety responsibility more to the pilots and reduces stress on the controller?
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 555
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From: Cilboldentune, Britannia
V tail
The OHJ might be a better option than say 'join at your own discretion'.
I once remember going to Shoreham and the controller was handling 14 aircraft; well I was told I was number 14 to land. It would have been interesting if all 14 of us were cleared to final at the same time. Anyway, II think this subject has probably been done to death now
The OHJ might be a better option than say 'join at your own discretion'.
I once remember going to Shoreham and the controller was handling 14 aircraft; well I was told I was number 14 to land. It would have been interesting if all 14 of us were cleared to final at the same time. Anyway, II think this subject has probably been done to death now
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 68
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From: In a dreamworld!
a call on the new UK unicom 135.475 should provide the same information
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 343
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From: Pembrokeshire UK
Mixed Up I think you are a bit mixed up. 135.475 is provided for pilots to give each other safety related information. If I had just landed at an uncontrolled grass strip, I would certainly give information on that airfield to other approaching aircraft. I would also expect aircraft in the cct to give the required info to approaching aircraft. This is SOP in France, but may be a bit new to Brits.
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Not a million miles from EGTF
Here is the CAA's view of Safetycom. I think you'll find that they have a very simple view of the system.
4 SAFETYCOM
4.1 SAFETYCOM is not an air traffic service.
4.2 SAFETYCOM is made available to pilots flying in the vicinity of locations having no notified VHF ground radio frequency. It is available to assist pilots to avoid potential collisions between arriving and departing aircraft and should normally be used only to broadcast the pilot’s intentions.
4.3 SAFETYCOM shall only be used at locations having no notified ground radio frequency. If a frequency is notified for a location, it must be used even outside the notified operating hours, using the procedures and phraseology published in CAP 413 Radiotelephony Manual (Chapter 4, Section 6).
4.4 Transmissions shall be made on SAFETYCOM only when aircraft are below 2000 ft above aerodrome or location elevation or below 1000 ft above promulgated circuit height (if applicable). Transmissions shall be made only within 10 nm of the aerodrome or location of intended landing.
4.5 The frequency shall be used only to transmit information regarding the pilot’s intentions, and there should be no response from the ground, except where the pilotof an aircraft on the ground also needs to transmit his intentions.
Exceptionally, where the pilot of an aircraft on the ground has information critical to the safety of an aircraft in a condition of distress or urgency, the frequency may be used to transmit that information.
4.6 Use of the frequency by pilots operating in the vicinity of an aerodrome that has no frequency assigned for communications is recommended, although it should be noted that its use is not mandatory.
4.7 Pilots remain responsible for obtaining any clearance that may be necessary to enter controlled airspace etc.
4.8 SAFETYCOM is only available within UK airspace.
4 SAFETYCOM
4.1 SAFETYCOM is not an air traffic service.
4.2 SAFETYCOM is made available to pilots flying in the vicinity of locations having no notified VHF ground radio frequency. It is available to assist pilots to avoid potential collisions between arriving and departing aircraft and should normally be used only to broadcast the pilot’s intentions.
4.3 SAFETYCOM shall only be used at locations having no notified ground radio frequency. If a frequency is notified for a location, it must be used even outside the notified operating hours, using the procedures and phraseology published in CAP 413 Radiotelephony Manual (Chapter 4, Section 6).
4.4 Transmissions shall be made on SAFETYCOM only when aircraft are below 2000 ft above aerodrome or location elevation or below 1000 ft above promulgated circuit height (if applicable). Transmissions shall be made only within 10 nm of the aerodrome or location of intended landing.
4.5 The frequency shall be used only to transmit information regarding the pilot’s intentions, and there should be no response from the ground, except where the pilotof an aircraft on the ground also needs to transmit his intentions.
Exceptionally, where the pilot of an aircraft on the ground has information critical to the safety of an aircraft in a condition of distress or urgency, the frequency may be used to transmit that information.
4.6 Use of the frequency by pilots operating in the vicinity of an aerodrome that has no frequency assigned for communications is recommended, although it should be noted that its use is not mandatory.
4.7 Pilots remain responsible for obtaining any clearance that may be necessary to enter controlled airspace etc.
4.8 SAFETYCOM is only available within UK airspace.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 85
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From: EGCC, EGGP, Relocatable to all UK
more more more
yay I thought I'd add some to this as I can't sleep lol
I prefer atc fields, this is just as I trained at them, maybe on my own but I would be happy with uk wide controlled airspace.
Barton in Manchester use OHJ, I think there it needs it, there can be 6 or 7 in the circuit at some times with only a flight info.
In the circuit with Manchester smog it can be hard work enough looking for other circuit traffic without a/c coming in from other places.
Coming into the circuit via an OHJ you can figure out better where you are going to slot in.
The BIGGEST problem here and at other places IMO is Muppet pilots reporting where they are when you can see them next/ahead of you and are most definitely not. Why do it ? is it just being slack ? stupid and dangerous
At ATC airports yes it's nice to join base or a partial downwind but then I'm assuming ATC know exactly what is going on and separate us accordingly (Liverpool and Manchester def do).
I got very used to strange joins and circuits as I trained at airfield that would often have left and right circuits active as well as standard ILS commercial arrivals. There was no OHJ and things often got VERY messy with 2 or 3 aircraft all joining downwind with circuit traffic.
There was full ATC but it was rare for them to organise ordering.
Sleap airfield use a non standard join, there you join down the runway centerline to be at circuit height ready to turn crosswind, does make seeing where you are in relation to the runway a little tricky but works, there is no cutting in as you are on the same line and no chance of missing someone taking off.
Personally I like the differences, I fly what I've been told, having lots of variation and different practices keeps me on the ball and makes flying more interesting. I fail to see the issue with having to make extra turns.
One plus for OHJ is you get a good look at the airfield and it's layout, AIP is good but there is nothing like orienting yourself before your on the ground.
Also found that 'join downwind' can be a bit fuzzy, I was taught: if told to join downwind in theory you should be joining where you would call downwind, but that seems to often end up as joining on the downwind leg as some point.
Though lots of disagreements is some good tips and info in the posts.
Ian
One question: I asked the question to my CFI: if you are joining via OHJ ,you know there is traffic and could be in conflict with but you cant spot them what do you do ?
Any opinions welcome, current answer is climb back up and re-join.
I prefer atc fields, this is just as I trained at them, maybe on my own but I would be happy with uk wide controlled airspace.
Barton in Manchester use OHJ, I think there it needs it, there can be 6 or 7 in the circuit at some times with only a flight info.
In the circuit with Manchester smog it can be hard work enough looking for other circuit traffic without a/c coming in from other places.
Coming into the circuit via an OHJ you can figure out better where you are going to slot in.
The BIGGEST problem here and at other places IMO is Muppet pilots reporting where they are when you can see them next/ahead of you and are most definitely not. Why do it ? is it just being slack ? stupid and dangerous
At ATC airports yes it's nice to join base or a partial downwind but then I'm assuming ATC know exactly what is going on and separate us accordingly (Liverpool and Manchester def do).
I got very used to strange joins and circuits as I trained at airfield that would often have left and right circuits active as well as standard ILS commercial arrivals. There was no OHJ and things often got VERY messy with 2 or 3 aircraft all joining downwind with circuit traffic.
There was full ATC but it was rare for them to organise ordering.
Sleap airfield use a non standard join, there you join down the runway centerline to be at circuit height ready to turn crosswind, does make seeing where you are in relation to the runway a little tricky but works, there is no cutting in as you are on the same line and no chance of missing someone taking off.
Personally I like the differences, I fly what I've been told, having lots of variation and different practices keeps me on the ball and makes flying more interesting. I fail to see the issue with having to make extra turns.
One plus for OHJ is you get a good look at the airfield and it's layout, AIP is good but there is nothing like orienting yourself before your on the ground.
Also found that 'join downwind' can be a bit fuzzy, I was taught: if told to join downwind in theory you should be joining where you would call downwind, but that seems to often end up as joining on the downwind leg as some point.
Though lots of disagreements is some good tips and info in the posts.
Ian
One question: I asked the question to my CFI: if you are joining via OHJ ,you know there is traffic and could be in conflict with but you cant spot them what do you do ?
Any opinions welcome, current answer is climb back up and re-join.
Last edited by igarratt; 10th August 2008 at 01:05.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 343
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From: Pembrokeshire UK
Robin & Mixed Up
A question: Why are Brits more interested in exactly following the letter of the law, rather than achieving the intention of regulations?
Could this be one of the reasons we have more trouble with EU regs than other nations.
A question: Why are Brits more interested in exactly following the letter of the law, rather than achieving the intention of regulations?
Could this be one of the reasons we have more trouble with EU regs than other nations.
Oh Shazbat!
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 239
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From: Leeds, UK
The BIGGEST problem here and at other places IMO is Muppet pilots reporting where they are when you can see them next/ahead of you and are most definitely not. Why do it ? is it just being slack ? stupid and dangerous
I can think of another airfield locally which has a similar problem - a line of trees block your view of any traffic on final if you are departing to the west.
Why do it?
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 68
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From: In a dreamworld!
Vee-tail:
This is a bit rich (and inconsistent) from you given your previous posts:
In my experience, pilots use SafetyCom to announce their intentions. At some fly-ins someone on the ground may have chipped in with airfield details but that has not been the norm. The French system seems to reflect this according to your first account (and my experience).
Robin & Mixed Up
A question: Why are Brits more interested in exactly following the letter of the law, rather than achieving the intention of regulations?
Could this be one of the reasons we have more trouble with EU regs than other nations.
A question: Why are Brits more interested in exactly following the letter of the law, rather than achieving the intention of regulations?
Could this be one of the reasons we have more trouble with EU regs than other nations.
Please don't try an OHJ in France...if you survive you may well be jailed for endangering life!
At controlled airfields ATC will tell you where to join. At uncontrolled fields you should have been listening out on French unicom of 123.5 to get proper situation awareness before arriving. You then make an all stations call prefixed with the airfield name on the same frequency to let people in the circuit know you are coming. French law requires a downwind join, joining from any other direction is an infringement liable to prosecution. Needless to say an understanding of aviation French is essential.
At controlled airfields ATC will tell you where to join. At uncontrolled fields you should have been listening out on French unicom of 123.5 to get proper situation awareness before arriving. You then make an all stations call prefixed with the airfield name on the same frequency to let people in the circuit know you are coming. French law requires a downwind join, joining from any other direction is an infringement liable to prosecution. Needless to say an understanding of aviation French is essential.
I don't get it?
If you have ATC they will give you the runway in use, cct direction, joining instructions, so no need for an OHJ.
At an uncontrolled field where aircraft with radios are operating, a call on the new UK unicom 135.475 should provide the same information. So no need for an OHJ.
Armed with the full airfield information obtained from ATC (or French style from other flyers,) it is easy to position yourself to join downwind at cct height.
Why perform a potentially dangerous manoeuvre when a bit of prior reconnaissance avoids it.
Edited to say that my instructor thinks few UK ppls are familiar with the use of unicom, so they are more likely to do an OHJ instead.
If you have ATC they will give you the runway in use, cct direction, joining instructions, so no need for an OHJ.
At an uncontrolled field where aircraft with radios are operating, a call on the new UK unicom 135.475 should provide the same information. So no need for an OHJ.
Armed with the full airfield information obtained from ATC (or French style from other flyers,) it is easy to position yourself to join downwind at cct height.
Why perform a potentially dangerous manoeuvre when a bit of prior reconnaissance avoids it.
Edited to say that my instructor thinks few UK ppls are familiar with the use of unicom, so they are more likely to do an OHJ instead.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: UK
Im a very low hours PPL.
I went to OBA Florida for my training (so no overhead joins) and the only flying I've done in the UK is local from Hawarden.
Im planning on a trip to Caernarfon this fri. I don't see the overhead join procedure as a problem but I had to ask my dad for advice on the radio calls I should make. He told me that I needed to be requesting joining information at uncontrolled airports rather than joining instructions.
So, I have recieved joining information and decide to make a OHJ.
what other calls would I make?
I went to OBA Florida for my training (so no overhead joins) and the only flying I've done in the UK is local from Hawarden.
Im planning on a trip to Caernarfon this fri. I don't see the overhead join procedure as a problem but I had to ask my dad for advice on the radio calls I should make. He told me that I needed to be requesting joining information at uncontrolled airports rather than joining instructions.
So, I have recieved joining information and decide to make a OHJ.
what other calls would I make?