SSEA rating as addition to PPL
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SSEA rating as addition to PPL
Re [URL="http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_689.pdf], the following may be of interest. This is an ANO , article 32 amendment and will be incorporated into the ANO June 2009.
From 1st Feb this year a pilot can and should include,if flown, a class rating for microlight, SLMG or SSEA. This would be added to the JAA/UK PPL, CPL or ATPL, in addition to any other ratings including SEP.
If the only flying is SSEA, the pilot can fly on a "medical declaration" as per the NPPL and not require a Class 2 medical.
(I heard all of the above through via an ex Flt Eng colleague who flies off a grass strip via a permit aircraft)
CAA FCL policy sent me a long explanation, mainly to my question re flying overseas on a JAR/PPL with a SSEA rating and a "medical declaration". The answer is no, ie it is not ICAO compliant without the Class 2 medical.
AOPA confirmed that a SSEA aircraft is under 2000kgs but could, after differences training ,include a CS prop and/or retractable gear!
Questions remain and I would be glad of any other thoughts.
If only used in UK, can aerial work be done and paid for in a SSEA,included in a CPL/ATPL. Can a UK IMC rating or UK night qualification be used on a SSEA within UK airspace? How is the SSEA rating included in the licence? As an examiner ,do I sign for both SEP and SSEA when revalidating the licence on the FCL150C form? How come SSEA includes elements of "complex" aircraft , if the "S" stands for simple?
From 1st Feb this year a pilot can and should include,if flown, a class rating for microlight, SLMG or SSEA. This would be added to the JAA/UK PPL, CPL or ATPL, in addition to any other ratings including SEP.
If the only flying is SSEA, the pilot can fly on a "medical declaration" as per the NPPL and not require a Class 2 medical.
(I heard all of the above through via an ex Flt Eng colleague who flies off a grass strip via a permit aircraft)
CAA FCL policy sent me a long explanation, mainly to my question re flying overseas on a JAR/PPL with a SSEA rating and a "medical declaration". The answer is no, ie it is not ICAO compliant without the Class 2 medical.
AOPA confirmed that a SSEA aircraft is under 2000kgs but could, after differences training ,include a CS prop and/or retractable gear!
Questions remain and I would be glad of any other thoughts.
If only used in UK, can aerial work be done and paid for in a SSEA,included in a CPL/ATPL. Can a UK IMC rating or UK night qualification be used on a SSEA within UK airspace? How is the SSEA rating included in the licence? As an examiner ,do I sign for both SEP and SSEA when revalidating the licence on the FCL150C form? How come SSEA includes elements of "complex" aircraft , if the "S" stands for simple?
You are confusing several issues.
1. There is no point in including SSEA/SLMG or Microlight Class Ratings in a non-NPPL if you have a valid SEP Class Rating included in a Pilot Licence. Such Ratings might, for example, appeal to an airline pilot who doesn't wish to keep a SEP Class Rating valid, but is happy to potter about now and then in a light aeroplane on nice sunny days and would find the validity requirements simpler. Or to the unfortunate person who has just had a non-NPPL re-issued and now finds that he/she can no longer meet JAA medical requirements.
2. The medical General Exemption is to allow current non-NPPL holders with SEP Class Ratings who can no longer hold (or choose not to hold) JAA medical certificates to continue to fly, restricted to SSEA/Microlight/SLMG privileges during the remainder of their licence issue period. When the licence comes up for re-issue, it will be replaced by a NPPL because a JAR/FCL licence cannot be re-issued without a valid JAA medical.
3. SSEA Class Ratings included in non-NPPLs restrict the holder to the same privileges as SSEA Class Ratings included in NPPLs - day VFR-only. Night and/or flight in IMC is not permitted.
4. Complex aeroplanes can, if falling within the weight/passenger limts appropriate to SSEA aeroplanes, be flown as PIC by pilots who have received 'differences training'.
1. There is no point in including SSEA/SLMG or Microlight Class Ratings in a non-NPPL if you have a valid SEP Class Rating included in a Pilot Licence. Such Ratings might, for example, appeal to an airline pilot who doesn't wish to keep a SEP Class Rating valid, but is happy to potter about now and then in a light aeroplane on nice sunny days and would find the validity requirements simpler. Or to the unfortunate person who has just had a non-NPPL re-issued and now finds that he/she can no longer meet JAA medical requirements.
2. The medical General Exemption is to allow current non-NPPL holders with SEP Class Ratings who can no longer hold (or choose not to hold) JAA medical certificates to continue to fly, restricted to SSEA/Microlight/SLMG privileges during the remainder of their licence issue period. When the licence comes up for re-issue, it will be replaced by a NPPL because a JAR/FCL licence cannot be re-issued without a valid JAA medical.
3. SSEA Class Ratings included in non-NPPLs restrict the holder to the same privileges as SSEA Class Ratings included in NPPLs - day VFR-only. Night and/or flight in IMC is not permitted.
4. Complex aeroplanes can, if falling within the weight/passenger limts appropriate to SSEA aeroplanes, be flown as PIC by pilots who have received 'differences training'.
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What, Whom and when
BEagle
I've missed this one. Are you saying that a JAA/UK PPL with a SEPL rating, who loses or does not wish to renew their JAA medical, may on the issue of the 'self declaration' medical with their GP, continue to fly those aircraft, the same as flown by NPPL holders, until the 5 year expiry of their JAA licence.
If that is the case what happens to UK holders whose licence is for life?
I've missed this one. Are you saying that a JAA/UK PPL with a SEPL rating, who loses or does not wish to renew their JAA medical, may on the issue of the 'self declaration' medical with their GP, continue to fly those aircraft, the same as flown by NPPL holders, until the 5 year expiry of their JAA licence.
If that is the case what happens to UK holders whose licence is for life?
homeguard, see ORS4 No. 689: Medical Declaration with Pilot Licences other than NPPL when flying SSEA, SLMG and Microlight Aircraft | Publications | CAA
In the case of 'lifetime' UK PPL holders, it is highly probable that the nice people in EASA will kill off such licences after 2012.
In the case of 'lifetime' UK PPL holders, it is highly probable that the nice people in EASA will kill off such licences after 2012.
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This is probably an interesting thread, and I would find it much more so if I knew what all the acronyms meant. I do recognize "UK", and a few others...
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BEagle, yes it is confusing.
Where and how is SSEA (simple single engine aircraft) defined? Many PPL's, both JAR and UK have "downgraded" to NPPL because of either the cost or problems with the medical. If a JAR/UK PPL could fly a SSEA with a medical declaration, surely he or she could use the privileges of the PPL and as I said above, and any attached UK rating.
This would be attractive to many pilots who want to fly only in UK airspace but using their IMC/Night ratings, and avoid a Class 2 medical
As I understand this ,the SSEA rating is a JAR aircraft classification, not just part of the NPPL structure, and not an aircraft operating limitation such the permit conditions of a microlight or permit aircraft.
Where and how is SSEA (simple single engine aircraft) defined? Many PPL's, both JAR and UK have "downgraded" to NPPL because of either the cost or problems with the medical. If a JAR/UK PPL could fly a SSEA with a medical declaration, surely he or she could use the privileges of the PPL and as I said above, and any attached UK rating.
This would be attractive to many pilots who want to fly only in UK airspace but using their IMC/Night ratings, and avoid a Class 2 medical
As I understand this ,the SSEA rating is a JAR aircraft classification, not just part of the NPPL structure, and not an aircraft operating limitation such the permit conditions of a microlight or permit aircraft.
It is not in the least confusing to those who have kept abreast of JAR/FCL and NPPL developments. I would expect an Examiner to have taken the time to have done so.
1. You can find the SSEA definitions in ANO Schedule 8. Together with the legal requirements to include specific additional complex variances, but not to exceed the SSEA weight limit or act as PIC if the total PoB exceeds 4 including the pilot.
2. Flight at night or in IMC is not permitted unless the licence holder has a JAA Class 1 or JAA Class 2 medical certificate. A medical declaration is insufficient.
3. SSEA is a national category, not a 'JAR' category.
4. The recent medical exemption allows those pilots, who would otherwise need to apply for NPPL issue in order to continue flying, to do so on an exemption to their JAR-FCL (or UK) Pilot Licence until it falls due for re-issue. That exemption limits them to the same privileges as a NPPL holder.
It really isn't rocket science.
1. You can find the SSEA definitions in ANO Schedule 8. Together with the legal requirements to include specific additional complex variances, but not to exceed the SSEA weight limit or act as PIC if the total PoB exceeds 4 including the pilot.
2. Flight at night or in IMC is not permitted unless the licence holder has a JAA Class 1 or JAA Class 2 medical certificate. A medical declaration is insufficient.
3. SSEA is a national category, not a 'JAR' category.
4. The recent medical exemption allows those pilots, who would otherwise need to apply for NPPL issue in order to continue flying, to do so on an exemption to their JAR-FCL (or UK) Pilot Licence until it falls due for re-issue. That exemption limits them to the same privileges as a NPPL holder.
It really isn't rocket science.
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Touche! It's not rocket science, it's a wonderful, more complicated mix of CAA, JAR and now EASA, and yes it is confusing. That is why I raised the thread on this forum, as I did previously re NPPL revalidation.
It is a potential problem as far as the CAA are concerned, particularly with a CPL using a SSEA rating addition to enable commercial operations, with a medical declaration.
Also I can find no reference to require a Class 1 or 2 medical when using the privileges of a UK IMC or night qualification. Surely the medical status refers to the licence held, and/or to a specific rating, ie Class 1 for paid FI.
Your comment that as an examiner I should know this subject better than appears is a little strong. The reason I post here is simply that as a CFI I am asked every week to determine the correct and legal way to assist local pilots to continue flying. I accept we have a system that is in transition but it is a shambles, not aided by supposition on what may or may not happen in four years time.
It is a potential problem as far as the CAA are concerned, particularly with a CPL using a SSEA rating addition to enable commercial operations, with a medical declaration.
Also I can find no reference to require a Class 1 or 2 medical when using the privileges of a UK IMC or night qualification. Surely the medical status refers to the licence held, and/or to a specific rating, ie Class 1 for paid FI.
Your comment that as an examiner I should know this subject better than appears is a little strong. The reason I post here is simply that as a CFI I am asked every week to determine the correct and legal way to assist local pilots to continue flying. I accept we have a system that is in transition but it is a shambles, not aided by supposition on what may or may not happen in four years time.
Please read the ANO!
The only licences to which a UK IMC or a Night qualification may be attached are those 'senior' to the NPPL. All of which require JAA Medical Certificates.
The ORS4 No 689 is an exemption to allow non-NPPL holders who have SEP Class Ratings and who cannot or do not wish to hold JAA Medical Certificates to exercise the privileges of a SSEA Class Rating restricted to those of the NPPL.
However you wish to try to twist it, that means NO commercial activity, NO Night, NO IMC etc.
The only licences to which a UK IMC or a Night qualification may be attached are those 'senior' to the NPPL. All of which require JAA Medical Certificates.
The ORS4 No 689 is an exemption to allow non-NPPL holders who have SEP Class Ratings and who cannot or do not wish to hold JAA Medical Certificates to exercise the privileges of a SSEA Class Rating restricted to those of the NPPL.
However you wish to try to twist it, that means NO commercial activity, NO Night, NO IMC etc.
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This is confusing, as the holder of a JAR PPL (A) with
SEP(land) and hopefully IMC (if i manage to get through it) my Class 2 Medical expires in March 2012 and my PPL requires re issue in June 2012 assuming I meet the currency requirements for my ppl are we saying if I dont renew the medical in march 12 my ppl will expire in june?, what is SSEA in terms of aircraft, is it a C152 or a C42 group A or a c42 with a thinner firewall hence non group A ? I would ask my instructor who is likely a carbon copy of pembroke, surrounded in caa spagetti.
As an example I recently enquired if the UK Imc rating would allow me to depart in IMC for france and upon crossing the FIR continue VFR on top.
A highly respected figure responded with
Since the ANO was re-ordered and quite massively reworded in the area of IMC
privileges, Schedule 8 still says JAR or CAA PPLs can fly out of sight of
surface if they have an IMC rating (like it always did), BUT the IMC rating
definition in the ANO is NO LONGER 'ordered' in such a way as to limit this to
the UK.
Probably a mistake - cant imagine them meaning to do this, BUT it is correct to
say that the ANO no longer is worded to limit the privilege JAR licences with
IMC rating flying out of sight of surface anywhere, yet the ANO still specifies
"UK only" for CAA licences with IMC ratings!
Which to me says the IMC is valid out of the UK on a JAA-PPL but not on a CAA PPL or does it !!
Madness
SEP(land) and hopefully IMC (if i manage to get through it) my Class 2 Medical expires in March 2012 and my PPL requires re issue in June 2012 assuming I meet the currency requirements for my ppl are we saying if I dont renew the medical in march 12 my ppl will expire in june?, what is SSEA in terms of aircraft, is it a C152 or a C42 group A or a c42 with a thinner firewall hence non group A ? I would ask my instructor who is likely a carbon copy of pembroke, surrounded in caa spagetti.
As an example I recently enquired if the UK Imc rating would allow me to depart in IMC for france and upon crossing the FIR continue VFR on top.
A highly respected figure responded with
Since the ANO was re-ordered and quite massively reworded in the area of IMC
privileges, Schedule 8 still says JAR or CAA PPLs can fly out of sight of
surface if they have an IMC rating (like it always did), BUT the IMC rating
definition in the ANO is NO LONGER 'ordered' in such a way as to limit this to
the UK.
Probably a mistake - cant imagine them meaning to do this, BUT it is correct to
say that the ANO no longer is worded to limit the privilege JAR licences with
IMC rating flying out of sight of surface anywhere, yet the ANO still specifies
"UK only" for CAA licences with IMC ratings!
Which to me says the IMC is valid out of the UK on a JAA-PPL but not on a CAA PPL or does it !!
Madness
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BEagle
As I read the ORS it only applies to UK CAA Pilot Licence, and not to JAR-FCL holders. I am even more confused as my PPL is a PPL(A) issued by the UK CAA which requires renewal every five years.
The ORS states:
The recent medical exemption allows those pilots, who would otherwise need to apply for NPPL issue in order to continue flying, to do so on an exemption to their JAR-FCL (or UK) Pilot Licence until it falls due for re-issue.
The ORS states:
a specified pilot’s licence is a pilot’s licence issued by the CAA, other than a National Private Pilot’s Licence, which entitles the holder to fly microlight aeroplanes, simple single engine aeroplanes (SSEA) or self launching motor gliders (SLMG).
This seems to imply that the exemption only applies to a UK Pilots licence issued pre-JAR with lifetime validity, as I believe that I cannot add an SLMG or SSEA rating to a JAR-FCL (UK issued post 2000) (eg SLMG is replaced by TMG rating).
Help!
No, a 'licence issued by the CAA' means both 'old style' UK licences and CAA-issued JAR-FCL licences.
However, if, for example, a CAA-issued JAR-FCL PPL(A) expired in, for example, 2006 and hasn't been re-issued, then either it would need to be re-issued with a JAA Medical Certificate or it could be replaced by an NPPL (and Medical Declaration).
However, if, for example, a CAA-issued JAR-FCL PPL(A) expired in, for example, 2006 and hasn't been re-issued, then either it would need to be re-issued with a JAA Medical Certificate or it could be replaced by an NPPL (and Medical Declaration).
