NDBs to be removed?
Thread Starter
I hope all who have made such good points regarding the need to retain en-route NDBs will also put finger to keyboard and USE THE CONSULTATION RESPONSE PROCESS!!
if you don't, you points will NOT be made known to the CAA.
Please ensure you do!!
if you don't, you points will NOT be made known to the CAA.
Please ensure you do!!
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Well I hope they don't get rid of the LBA NDB. It has a very good secondary use as an airfield locator. Apart from which I sweated blood using it during my IR.
As for the rest of them to be honest unless they are knackard and need replacement I would say keep them. They must cost buttons compared to most other nav aids.
Not every commercial aircraft has an all singing and dancing FMC EFIS nav kit.
Some of us sit navigate prefectly happily around the country using steam powered instruments and some first generation B-RNAV GPS.
Personally I use them for abeam fuel checks apart from confirming we are on the airway the GPS thinks we are.
the ones I have regularly used in the last 12 months are
Leeds LBA
Litchfield LIC
New Galloway NGY
Scotstown Head SHD
Has anyone mentioned to the offshore lot that SHD is for the chop.
PPL VFR flying yes i can see some of them of use but even en-route in CAS with commercial aircraft they are not useless.
And as for not putting a VOR/DME back at NCL. The amount of airspace busts that occured a few years ago when a NAV database update shifted it 10 miles inland should have proved its worth.
As for the rest of them to be honest unless they are knackard and need replacement I would say keep them. They must cost buttons compared to most other nav aids.
Not every commercial aircraft has an all singing and dancing FMC EFIS nav kit.
Some of us sit navigate prefectly happily around the country using steam powered instruments and some first generation B-RNAV GPS.
Personally I use them for abeam fuel checks apart from confirming we are on the airway the GPS thinks we are.
the ones I have regularly used in the last 12 months are
Leeds LBA
Litchfield LIC
New Galloway NGY
Scotstown Head SHD
Has anyone mentioned to the offshore lot that SHD is for the chop.
PPL VFR flying yes i can see some of them of use but even en-route in CAS with commercial aircraft they are not useless.
And as for not putting a VOR/DME back at NCL. The amount of airspace busts that occured a few years ago when a NAV database update shifted it 10 miles inland should have proved its worth.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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I think getting rid of them without a suitable alternative is not a good idea.
As a PPL, I've used WCO, BUR (when SVFR in the LHR zone), LIC to avoid bumping into controlled airspace at East Midlands when traveling in the corridor between Birmingham and East Midlands. This particular one is goo as it has a good range unlike most of the otehr with a typical 10-15NM range.
If they had to go, a VOR in its place would be ideal but I can't see that happening realistically.
Even if flying VFR, I'd be surprised if people flew using dead reckoning on longer trips - I'm not saying it can't be done and we should be qualified to do that , but beacon bashing is so much easier and reduces the risk of getting lost or infringing controlled airspace.
Not all of us have or use GPS.
As a PPL, I've used WCO, BUR (when SVFR in the LHR zone), LIC to avoid bumping into controlled airspace at East Midlands when traveling in the corridor between Birmingham and East Midlands. This particular one is goo as it has a good range unlike most of the otehr with a typical 10-15NM range.
If they had to go, a VOR in its place would be ideal but I can't see that happening realistically.
Even if flying VFR, I'd be surprised if people flew using dead reckoning on longer trips - I'm not saying it can't be done and we should be qualified to do that , but beacon bashing is so much easier and reduces the risk of getting lost or infringing controlled airspace.
Not all of us have or use GPS.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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As a business, NATS should try and do the minimum possible work consistent with their licence and the law. They should equally lobby the regulator to impose, through law, process, equipment and costs obligations on others to to reduce their cost and simplify their life all while trying to maintain or increase prices. Much as train companies should run small overcrowded trains with very high prices only for main line passengers.
It is the government's roll through regulators to impose operating standards, minimum services, and price controls to offset the one-sided nature of decisions by a monopoly supplier (which in any given piece of airspace is true for ATC).
It is the general public's job to campaign against the unreasonable actions of monopolies and for the rights of minority members of the community to be protected.
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Not withstanding the above concept, the NDB as a navaid has had its day. Hopefully the CAA will at sometime make peace with 'The Work of The Devil' (i.e. non B-RNAV use of GPS).
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The massive double standard in PPL privileges is that you are supposed to be able to navigate your way around controlled airspace (which, let's face it, is not exactly marked on the ground below 
) but on the one hand you are not taught how to do this, other than by locating various ground features which hopefully tell you where you are.
If CAS didn't exist (the pre-WW2 situation, more or less) this wouldn't matter because nobody (other than you) cares if you get lost. If you are walking up Mt Snowdon then you are on your own, and that is how flying used to be in the goode olde days.
But CAS does exist and every year there are hundreds of spectacular busts, plus many more less relevant ones.
One day, probably long after I have stopped flying, something may be done about this, and the only possible thing is the complete embrace of GPS
I cannot get too excised about NDBs. They are OK for instrument training but only while one needs them, and usually there will be some NDB which can be used for that purpose - could even be a radio station if you get really stuck. Plenty of people train for VOR approaches around enroute VORs (like SFD) pretending they are somewhere else (at an airport).
They are OK for GPS backup but I cannot get excited about the 0.001% of the time that GPS is not working. One can tune in a VOR/DME then, or even call up 121.50.
If nav capabilities improve (which they need to, drastically, to do something about the CAS busts), the staff at D&D will end up twiddling their fingers and will be really keen on getting some calls.
) but on the one hand you are not taught how to do this, other than by locating various ground features which hopefully tell you where you are.If CAS didn't exist (the pre-WW2 situation, more or less) this wouldn't matter because nobody (other than you) cares if you get lost. If you are walking up Mt Snowdon then you are on your own, and that is how flying used to be in the goode olde days.
But CAS does exist and every year there are hundreds of spectacular busts, plus many more less relevant ones.
One day, probably long after I have stopped flying, something may be done about this, and the only possible thing is the complete embrace of GPS
I cannot get too excised about NDBs. They are OK for instrument training but only while one needs them, and usually there will be some NDB which can be used for that purpose - could even be a radio station if you get really stuck. Plenty of people train for VOR approaches around enroute VORs (like SFD) pretending they are somewhere else (at an airport).
They are OK for GPS backup but I cannot get excited about the 0.001% of the time that GPS is not working. One can tune in a VOR/DME then, or even call up 121.50.
If nav capabilities improve (which they need to, drastically, to do something about the CAS busts), the staff at D&D will end up twiddling their fingers and will be really keen on getting some calls.
