Drink driving conviction and pilot's licence
Drink driving conviction and pilot's licence
It's a Sunday, times are slow...
This is presently (and hopefully will remain for everyone on PPRUNE) an entirely theoretical question.
If I drive home after one too many, and get stopped and am over the limit - I will be prosecuted. I guess I lose my driving licence for a year (?).
Does this have any effect on my PPLs? FAA or UK CAA (JAA)?
I fly privately, so there is no 'company policy' to play in this scenario.
Intrigued to hear any thoughts.
Sam.
PS I understand that it's wrong, morally indefensible, irresponsible etc. I'd just like to know how it works practically!
This is presently (and hopefully will remain for everyone on PPRUNE) an entirely theoretical question.
If I drive home after one too many, and get stopped and am over the limit - I will be prosecuted. I guess I lose my driving licence for a year (?).
Does this have any effect on my PPLs? FAA or UK CAA (JAA)?
I fly privately, so there is no 'company policy' to play in this scenario.
Intrigued to hear any thoughts.
Sam.
PS I understand that it's wrong, morally indefensible, irresponsible etc. I'd just like to know how it works practically!
niknak
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F.L is correct, as things stand, there is no requirement for UK pilots to declare any such conviction to the CAA.
However, a flying colleague tells me that some insurance companies now want to know about such things when you are convicted and/or when you are renewing your policy. If you don't, your insurance is invalid.
Playing the devils advocate, I assume they think that if you are stupid enough to drink and drive, then you'd be stupid enough to take the risk and fly after having a few drinks.
Over the last few years, ther have been several cases of airline pilots being caught out and convicted, having over indulged in the hours before coming on duty.
Last year there were at least two fatal accidents in Europe which the pilot had consumed well over the drink drive limit, although I don't know if in either case the accident was as a direct result of that.
I've no doubt that with further implementation of European JAA legislation into CAA regulations, it will become necessary to declare such things.
However, a flying colleague tells me that some insurance companies now want to know about such things when you are convicted and/or when you are renewing your policy. If you don't, your insurance is invalid.
Playing the devils advocate, I assume they think that if you are stupid enough to drink and drive, then you'd be stupid enough to take the risk and fly after having a few drinks.
Over the last few years, ther have been several cases of airline pilots being caught out and convicted, having over indulged in the hours before coming on duty.
Last year there were at least two fatal accidents in Europe which the pilot had consumed well over the drink drive limit, although I don't know if in either case the accident was as a direct result of that.
I've no doubt that with further implementation of European JAA legislation into CAA regulations, it will become necessary to declare such things.
I understand what needs to be done - my question is (again):
"For the FAA licence, having advised the Security and Investigations division, what do they 'normally' do? "
My original posting was also with regard, not to the processes that need to be completed, but what end effect might this have on my licence(s) - if that was not clear, then I apologise...
Sam.
"For the FAA licence, having advised the Security and Investigations division, what do they 'normally' do? "
My original posting was also with regard, not to the processes that need to be completed, but what end effect might this have on my licence(s) - if that was not clear, then I apologise...
Sam.
Thanks for the link!
From the FAQs on the same page, apparently as long as there are more than 3 years between 'incidents' - you are in the clear.
So:
UK JAR - no link, no problem
US FAA - keep a minimum of 3 years between getting caught
Sorry if the light tone offends someone!
Have a nice end of weekend all...
Sam.
From the FAQs on the same page, apparently as long as there are more than 3 years between 'incidents' - you are in the clear.
So:
UK JAR - no link, no problem
US FAA - keep a minimum of 3 years between getting caught
Sorry if the light tone offends someone!
Have a nice end of weekend all...
Sam.
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Same goes for drug convictions / cautions as regards to the FAA (as a bit of weed is worse than murder in the USA).
It is very easy, just don't do it then you won't have to cross that bridge 
This is presently (and hopefully will remain for everyone on PPRUNE) an entirely theoretical question.
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Ahhh, right.
My idiot brother-in-law (he's not really an idiot really and has grown up a bit since) crashed his car on the I-5 in the middle of the night while pissed. So what does he do? Flags down a passing Sheriff to help him push it out of the ditch, who arrests him 
Then he spends $8000 trying to fight it in court And loses and gets fined another $8000 or so for trying to fight it ....
I had to laugh
My idiot brother-in-law (he's not really an idiot really and has grown up a bit since
) crashed his car on the I-5 in the middle of the night while pissed. So what does he do? Flags down a passing Sheriff to help him push it out of the ditch, who arrests him Then he spends $8000 trying to fight it in court And loses and gets fined another $8000 or so for trying to fight it ....I had to laugh
Pompey till I die
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A very good read on why this should (strangely) be is Eric Schlosser's "Reefer Madness".
The biggest antri -drugs message I ever saw was a dead junkie lying in a doorway with a needle stuck in his arm. Then again the human zoo that is "perron null" (platform zero) at Rotterdam Centraal station, where all drugs are legal, was also pretty off putting for the potential druggy.
Compare and contrast with my colleagues even today back in the UK. No small number of whom think cocaine is "cool". It's obvious why the Netherlands has fewer druggies than we manage to produce here in the UK. In the Netherlands the scum of society take drugs. In the UK it's the celebrities and pop stars.
Legalise drugs, get them out in the open and consumption will drop. Dead junkies shout the anti-drugs message far louder than the kids from Grange Hill ever did. "No, just say no! NO! just say No!" etc etc
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PP, although I mostly agree with what you say, I have to nuance the attitude to drugs in the Netherlands somewhat.
First, drugs are formally illegal in the Netherlands. We simply cannot change our own legislation due to EU harmonization and changing the rules on an EU-basis, well, I guess the EU is not yet ready for that.
Instead, drugs are tolerated. You will not get arrested if you buy or possess a limited quantity which is clearly intended for your own use. Although you will get arrested if you consume (inject, smoke, eat, whatever) that limited quantity in an inappropriate (public) place. Hard drugs (in general the stuff that forms a physical addiction instead of a mental one) is not tolerated whatsoever.
The ironic thing in this whole story is that while buying drugs is tolerated, selling drugs is tolerated less, and producing it is outright illegal. You can buy 5 grams of weed for your own personal use, but a coffeeshop is not allowed to hold more than 500 grams (total) in stock. Some coffeeshops have multiple counters, offer a selection of 10+ types of weed and see well over a thousand customers a day. To serve that need, you have to have more than 500 grams in stock. And you need a fairly steady supply as well: relying on people growing weed at home (5 plants per household are allowed) is simply not effective enough. Clearly, on this side of the business there's something fishy going on.
Anyway. Drug usage. From what I see and hear, there are a few types of drug users in the Netherlands. (And no, I'm not one of either type.)
First, there is a hard core of harddrugs junks. Mostly living on the street in Amsterdam. These people, in addition to a drugs addiction, usually have other problems/disorders as well. Whether these disorders come from drug use, or the other way 'round is hard to tell. A lot of them are foreign in any case so their history is not well known. Almost all will steal or hustle to generate the money for their drug use, wandering from help center to help center. To help them, we first try to break the vicious circle by supplying them with free methadon, then get them off the street into a more or less orderly lifestyle, solve their other medical/mental problems and try to get them back into society as "normal" citizens. Hard, but succeeds sometimes.
Second, there is a group of people who are reasonably well off, have high-paying but stressful jobs and occasionally use upmarket drugs (cocaine mostly) to sustain their lifestyle. Think stockbrokers. In most of the professional communities I know this is frowned upon but it might well be that in certain professional communities it is silently understood. In any case, these drug users are mostly very intelligent, they know the effects and are normally able to limit their drug usage to sustainable levels.
The third group is relatively young people who experiment with drugs. As far as I can see this is mostly the age group 16-23 who will experiment with weed, mushrooms and XTC. Most of these kids know the dangers and will only use drugs in a company of friends so that they can assist if somebody has a "bad trip". Typically these drugs are taken as part of a larger party, tournament, school outing or something like that. Organizers of such events frown upon drug use but it's hard to stop it. A special case is house parties where sometimes thousands of people dance through the night. Despite rigorous checks at the entrance, XTC is available in abundance at such parties. The first aid people at those places have had special training into treating drugs users and the drug users, again, know the dangers. Particularly of combining XTC with alcohol: plain mineral water is the beverage that's most often sold at these parties.
Most drug users from this third group, if they're not put off by their first experience, will continue to use drugs, in moderation, at parties but will not use any drugs in their daily life. Although a few will associate weed with a hippie lifestyle and will smoke one before they go to bed, or start growing their own. Again, not a problem.
And the fourth group we see, mostly in Amsterdam, is tourists. This is actually the most dangerous group. Most tourists are not as well educated in drugs use as the Dutch, and will use anything and everything in combination with each other. Despite the leaflets that the police in Amsterdam hand out to tourists, warning them of the dangers of drugs use. And to be honest, young male adults from the UK are the worst. Alcohol, mushrooms, XTC and weed are all used together until they wake up in a hospital from their coma. Incidents like that don't even make the news anymore.
So, thanks to the tolerance for drug use and the effective education in drug use, yes, there is drugs usage in the Netherlands. But apart from a few groups (hardcore junkies and tourists, mostly) this is not a problem whatsoever. The key of course is good education on types of drugs, their effects standalone and in combination, and the short- and long term effects. Oh, and indeed drug use is not seen as "cool" in most parts of society.
You also mentioned "perron nul" (platform zero) in Rotterdam. Contrary to belief, this place was not created to use drugs legally. Instead, it was intended as a method of breaking through the vicious circle but this time by giving the junkies a steady place to live instead of being harassed continuously by the police to move somewhere else. From this steady place they had access to help centers etc. Perron nul is now closed, not because of its ideas but because the location was needed for redevelopment of the new Rotterdam Central Station.
First, drugs are formally illegal in the Netherlands. We simply cannot change our own legislation due to EU harmonization and changing the rules on an EU-basis, well, I guess the EU is not yet ready for that.
Instead, drugs are tolerated. You will not get arrested if you buy or possess a limited quantity which is clearly intended for your own use. Although you will get arrested if you consume (inject, smoke, eat, whatever) that limited quantity in an inappropriate (public) place. Hard drugs (in general the stuff that forms a physical addiction instead of a mental one) is not tolerated whatsoever.
The ironic thing in this whole story is that while buying drugs is tolerated, selling drugs is tolerated less, and producing it is outright illegal. You can buy 5 grams of weed for your own personal use, but a coffeeshop is not allowed to hold more than 500 grams (total) in stock. Some coffeeshops have multiple counters, offer a selection of 10+ types of weed and see well over a thousand customers a day. To serve that need, you have to have more than 500 grams in stock. And you need a fairly steady supply as well: relying on people growing weed at home (5 plants per household are allowed) is simply not effective enough. Clearly, on this side of the business there's something fishy going on.
Anyway. Drug usage. From what I see and hear, there are a few types of drug users in the Netherlands. (And no, I'm not one of either type.)
First, there is a hard core of harddrugs junks. Mostly living on the street in Amsterdam. These people, in addition to a drugs addiction, usually have other problems/disorders as well. Whether these disorders come from drug use, or the other way 'round is hard to tell. A lot of them are foreign in any case so their history is not well known. Almost all will steal or hustle to generate the money for their drug use, wandering from help center to help center. To help them, we first try to break the vicious circle by supplying them with free methadon, then get them off the street into a more or less orderly lifestyle, solve their other medical/mental problems and try to get them back into society as "normal" citizens. Hard, but succeeds sometimes.
Second, there is a group of people who are reasonably well off, have high-paying but stressful jobs and occasionally use upmarket drugs (cocaine mostly) to sustain their lifestyle. Think stockbrokers. In most of the professional communities I know this is frowned upon but it might well be that in certain professional communities it is silently understood. In any case, these drug users are mostly very intelligent, they know the effects and are normally able to limit their drug usage to sustainable levels.
The third group is relatively young people who experiment with drugs. As far as I can see this is mostly the age group 16-23 who will experiment with weed, mushrooms and XTC. Most of these kids know the dangers and will only use drugs in a company of friends so that they can assist if somebody has a "bad trip". Typically these drugs are taken as part of a larger party, tournament, school outing or something like that. Organizers of such events frown upon drug use but it's hard to stop it. A special case is house parties where sometimes thousands of people dance through the night. Despite rigorous checks at the entrance, XTC is available in abundance at such parties. The first aid people at those places have had special training into treating drugs users and the drug users, again, know the dangers. Particularly of combining XTC with alcohol: plain mineral water is the beverage that's most often sold at these parties.
Most drug users from this third group, if they're not put off by their first experience, will continue to use drugs, in moderation, at parties but will not use any drugs in their daily life. Although a few will associate weed with a hippie lifestyle and will smoke one before they go to bed, or start growing their own. Again, not a problem.
And the fourth group we see, mostly in Amsterdam, is tourists. This is actually the most dangerous group. Most tourists are not as well educated in drugs use as the Dutch, and will use anything and everything in combination with each other. Despite the leaflets that the police in Amsterdam hand out to tourists, warning them of the dangers of drugs use. And to be honest, young male adults from the UK are the worst. Alcohol, mushrooms, XTC and weed are all used together until they wake up in a hospital from their coma. Incidents like that don't even make the news anymore.
So, thanks to the tolerance for drug use and the effective education in drug use, yes, there is drugs usage in the Netherlands. But apart from a few groups (hardcore junkies and tourists, mostly) this is not a problem whatsoever. The key of course is good education on types of drugs, their effects standalone and in combination, and the short- and long term effects. Oh, and indeed drug use is not seen as "cool" in most parts of society.
You also mentioned "perron nul" (platform zero) in Rotterdam. Contrary to belief, this place was not created to use drugs legally. Instead, it was intended as a method of breaking through the vicious circle but this time by giving the junkies a steady place to live instead of being harassed continuously by the police to move somewhere else. From this steady place they had access to help centers etc. Perron nul is now closed, not because of its ideas but because the location was needed for redevelopment of the new Rotterdam Central Station.
