Confuser Q&A Query
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From: Frinton-on-Sea
Confuser Q&A Query
These 2 questions appear in the Confuser BUT there are 2 different answers. The answer to the first question (52) is shown as C, whilst the answer to the second question (66) is shown as B.
52 The abbreviation of an aircraft call-sign by a pilot is only permissible:
A after two-way communication with the ground station has been established.
B when it is established that confusion will not occur due to other aircraft having similar call-sign using the same frequency.
C after it has been abbreviated by the aeronautical ground station on the frequency in use.
D after it has been agreed by the pilot and controller in two-way radio communication.
66 The abbreviation of a ground station call-sign by a pilot is only permissible:
A after two-way communication with the ground station has been established.
B when satisfactory communication has been established and providing it will not be confusing, the name of the location or the call-sign suffix may be omitted.
C after it has been abbreviated by the aircraft commander on the frequency in use.
D after it has been agreed by the pilot and controller in two-way radio communication.
Q52's answer makes sense but not Q66.
I thought a pilot could only abbreviate a call-sign if it was first abbreviated by the ground station or does this not apply to abbreviating a ground station call-sign?
Help!
Greg
52 The abbreviation of an aircraft call-sign by a pilot is only permissible:
A after two-way communication with the ground station has been established.
B when it is established that confusion will not occur due to other aircraft having similar call-sign using the same frequency.
C after it has been abbreviated by the aeronautical ground station on the frequency in use.
D after it has been agreed by the pilot and controller in two-way radio communication.
66 The abbreviation of a ground station call-sign by a pilot is only permissible:
A after two-way communication with the ground station has been established.
B when satisfactory communication has been established and providing it will not be confusing, the name of the location or the call-sign suffix may be omitted.
C after it has been abbreviated by the aircraft commander on the frequency in use.
D after it has been agreed by the pilot and controller in two-way radio communication.
Q52's answer makes sense but not Q66.
I thought a pilot could only abbreviate a call-sign if it was first abbreviated by the ground station or does this not apply to abbreviating a ground station call-sign?
Help!
Greg
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Nottingham
2 Answers? 2 Questions
There are 2 answers to 2 different questions!
Q1 is abbreviated aircraft and Q2 is abbreviated Ground Station!?
And I don't believe it applies to ground stations the same as aircraft as the answers intimate!
I.E: Initial Call May Be;
"East Midlands Ground, G-ABCD Request radio check And taxi with information "whatever""
Could then become;
"Ground, G-ABCD, (Note the East Midlands identifier is missing) Confirm taxi to and hold short runway 27"
Spru!
(edited to include scenario)
Q1 is abbreviated aircraft and Q2 is abbreviated Ground Station!?
And I don't believe it applies to ground stations the same as aircraft as the answers intimate!
I.E: Initial Call May Be;
"East Midlands Ground, G-ABCD Request radio check And taxi with information "whatever""
Could then become;
"Ground, G-ABCD, (Note the East Midlands identifier is missing) Confirm taxi to and hold short runway 27"
Spru!
(edited to include scenario)
Last edited by Spruit; 25th June 2008 at 09:44.
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From: Amsterdam
Normally there's only one ground station and multiple aircraft on one frequency, so it makes sense that there are different rules.
Here's an example
"XXX Radio, G-ABCD request departure information"
"G-CD, XXX Radio, runway YY, surface wind zzz/zz, QNH 1013" <- A/C callsign abbreviated by AFIS.
"Runway YY, QNH 1013, G-CD" <- AFIS callsign completely omitted by A/C
This is within a single conversation. But for instance during a transit of a CTR you might have multiple of these conversations. The first one will start with the full callsign, e.g. "XXX Tower, G-ABCD request transit". But any next conversation might be initiated with just "XXX" or "Tower" or even leave out the callsign of the ground station altogether, for instance in a position report:
"G-CD is Bravo"
"G-CD report Tango"
"Wilco Tango, G-CD"
Here's an example
"XXX Radio, G-ABCD request departure information"
"G-CD, XXX Radio, runway YY, surface wind zzz/zz, QNH 1013" <- A/C callsign abbreviated by AFIS.
"Runway YY, QNH 1013, G-CD" <- AFIS callsign completely omitted by A/C
This is within a single conversation. But for instance during a transit of a CTR you might have multiple of these conversations. The first one will start with the full callsign, e.g. "XXX Tower, G-ABCD request transit". But any next conversation might be initiated with just "XXX" or "Tower" or even leave out the callsign of the ground station altogether, for instance in a position report:
"G-CD is Bravo"
"G-CD report Tango"
"Wilco Tango, G-CD"
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
Sure. Me too. And if I have an unusual/unexpected request, I usually prefix it with the callsign too.
"G-CD is Bravo"
"G-CD report Tango"
"Wilco Tango, G-CD"
...
"Er, Tower, G-CD, question?"
"G-CD go ahead"
"Do you know the status of thisandthis danger area by any chance?" (assuming the danger area is outside his control area, so I know he's going to have to look it up or phone somebody about it)
"Er, G-CD standby"
And of course, whether you can ask such questions and when to and not to abbreviate or omit callsigns also depends on the amount of traffic on the frequency, the mood of the ATC person and so forth. Good judgment is more important than strict adherence to CAP413. Although for the PPL exams stick to CAP413, obviously.
"G-CD is Bravo"
"G-CD report Tango"
"Wilco Tango, G-CD"
...
"Er, Tower, G-CD, question?"
"G-CD go ahead"
"Do you know the status of thisandthis danger area by any chance?" (assuming the danger area is outside his control area, so I know he's going to have to look it up or phone somebody about it)
"Er, G-CD standby"
And of course, whether you can ask such questions and when to and not to abbreviate or omit callsigns also depends on the amount of traffic on the frequency, the mood of the ATC person and so forth. Good judgment is more important than strict adherence to CAP413. Although for the PPL exams stick to CAP413, obviously.
Joined: Feb 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
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From: one dot low as usual
Good judgment is more important than strict adherence to CAP413
I don't agree. The CAA/NATS are pushing for better RT standards. All commercial pilots have already received a glossy CAA booklet which stresses this and gives many of the CAP413 RT calls.
"Er, Tower .. "
"Er, G-CD .. "
Again, CAP413 1.2.1.g - Transmitting Technique - Avoid using hesitation sounds such as "er".
The simplest thing to do is answer them in the same was as they address you.
"PPRUNE Control, G-ABCD"
"G-CD pass your message"
"G-CD is a ...."
I don't agree. The CAA/NATS are pushing for better RT standards. All commercial pilots have already received a glossy CAA booklet which stresses this and gives many of the CAP413 RT calls.
"Er, Tower .. "
"Er, G-CD .. "
Again, CAP413 1.2.1.g - Transmitting Technique - Avoid using hesitation sounds such as "er".
The simplest thing to do is answer them in the same was as they address you.
"PPRUNE Control, G-ABCD"
"G-CD pass your message"
"G-CD is a ...."
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,598
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From: Amsterdam
Again, CAP413 1.2.1.g - Transmitting Technique - Avoid using hesitation sounds such as "er".
"Tower, G-CD request"
and
"Er, Tower, G-CD question?"
In the first case tower knows I have a rather lengthy, but CAP413 compliant request I. In the second case, tower knows that something non-standard is going to happen. This might influence his decision on whether to let me go ahead straight away, or put me on standby for a few seconds so that he can issue a few landing clearances first.
In a busy environment, stick to CAP413. But if it's quiet on the frequency you can sometimes get away with subtle or not so subtle deviations from CAP413. "Good morning", "bye bye" and "thank you" are the most common deviations and I don't mind an "Er, standby" from the tower too if I've just asked an unusual/unexpected question and the tower needs to think about how to handle that. At the end of the day, we're only human!
On the other hand, if I've just called "short final" and the tower responds with "Er, standby" I might not be too happy about it.
