PPL - Paying in installments
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 525
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PPL - Paying in installments
Hi - after a couple of lessons I've decided to purchase a package for my PPL. It seems to save me £700-1000 over the duration of the 45 hour course. I didn't want to pay all up front so have negotiated payment in 3 installments (~£1800 ea at 0hrs, 15hrs and 30hrs). There is no surcharge on using my credit card so I'd use this and in the unlikely event of the school going bust mid-way through I should have some financial protection (I think?) Do you think this is a sensible approach?
Pompey till I die
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Guildford
Age: 51
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No
In a word, NO
The reason they are asking you to pay up front is because the bank won't lend them dosh so they're asking you to do it instead. I would absolutely avoid doing this at all costs.
What happens if they go bust ? What happens if you fail the medical ? What happens if you get airsick really badly and can't carry on ? What happens if their aircraft go out of service for several weeks or months ? What happens if all of the instructors leave ? What happens if the airfield closes ? What happens if the price of AVGAS continues to sky rocket and they can't honour the commitment anymore ? What happens if they take on to many students and you can't get flying time anymore ? What happens if you have to drop out due to work or family commitments ?
The reason they are asking you to pay up front is because the bank won't lend them dosh so they're asking you to do it instead. I would absolutely avoid doing this at all costs.
What happens if they go bust ? What happens if you fail the medical ? What happens if you get airsick really badly and can't carry on ? What happens if their aircraft go out of service for several weeks or months ? What happens if all of the instructors leave ? What happens if the airfield closes ? What happens if the price of AVGAS continues to sky rocket and they can't honour the commitment anymore ? What happens if they take on to many students and you can't get flying time anymore ? What happens if you have to drop out due to work or family commitments ?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whilst I concur with Pauls sentiments to a certain degree, I would also suggest it depends on who you are training with.
I usually fly out of Redhill and I tend to make block payments, partly because when I have some cash I give it to the school so it is ringfenced for flying and also because I get a slight reduction in costs.
It would not cross my mind that the operator in question would not honour my payment, maybe I am nieive.
I usually fly out of Redhill and I tend to make block payments, partly because when I have some cash I give it to the school so it is ringfenced for flying and also because I get a slight reduction in costs.
It would not cross my mind that the operator in question would not honour my payment, maybe I am nieive.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yorkshire
Age: 50
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PompeyPaul
I think that you should be careful about what you say about paying up front. It is not a scam/sign of a company in trouble etc.
Small and medium businesses love people paying up front for goods and services. It is good for cashflow and allows a business to be more optimistic about the future. When you have lots of cash in the bank you are more likely to do things like have aircraft refurbished, invest in better facilities or more staff.
Bank loans are expensive and a waste of money if you can have good cashflow from customers paying up front. Customers love this since they get reduced cost flying. Everyone wins.
The PPrune users are not particularly helpful when they insist on telling people not to pay upfront. Very few flying schools are financially unstable or are run by crooks.
I suspect that most PPrune users are so tight for cash that the concept of paying £5K up front is so alien to them that they always try to discrourage others from spending money.
If I ran a flying school I would always encourage customers to pay upfront - In my current business everyone pays upfront.
Small and medium businesses love people paying up front for goods and services. It is good for cashflow and allows a business to be more optimistic about the future. When you have lots of cash in the bank you are more likely to do things like have aircraft refurbished, invest in better facilities or more staff.
Bank loans are expensive and a waste of money if you can have good cashflow from customers paying up front. Customers love this since they get reduced cost flying. Everyone wins.
The PPrune users are not particularly helpful when they insist on telling people not to pay upfront. Very few flying schools are financially unstable or are run by crooks.
I suspect that most PPrune users are so tight for cash that the concept of paying £5K up front is so alien to them that they always try to discrourage others from spending money.
If I ran a flying school I would always encourage customers to pay upfront - In my current business everyone pays upfront.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Manchester
Age: 40
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I noticed that you are located in Lancashire... may I ask what airfield you are going to be training at? The reason I ask is that I know of one particular FTO in Lancashire that you should definately steer clear of.
I paid for my PPL in similar installments and luckily I didn't get burned... However, a lot of people who have paid 'upfront' have, hence the advice so far, it definately depends on who you choose to train with.
Good luck with the training!
Happy Flying
SS
I paid for my PPL in similar installments and luckily I didn't get burned... However, a lot of people who have paid 'upfront' have, hence the advice so far, it definately depends on who you choose to train with.
Good luck with the training!
Happy Flying
SS
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As hemac said, it depends on the school. It does also depend on some of the factors mentioned by Pompey Paul.
Firstly, if the school goes bust, the credit card company should cover the amount. Secondly, always get your medical before you commit to any flying, paid in advance or not. Thirdly, the OP has had a few lessons already so therefore knows whether he likes it or not or is likely to get airsick. Fourthly, work and family commitments are the OPs business and only he is in a position to know whether he can devote the necessary time. Let's assume he can otherwise he wouldn't be asking!!
The points about fuel surcharging, aircraft serviceability and availability though are valid and enquiries should be made about these scenarios. If the OP decides to learn full-time, then the risk of exposure is very much lessened. Similarly, aiming to fly several times a week will also lessen this risk.
I paid up front for a PPL(H). Shock, horror, what was I thinking of???
I did my PPL(H) full-time with one of the most respected operators in the business. I carried out full Dun & Bradstreet checks (they got an A1) and obtained the last two years worth of Financial Statements. Therefore, my exposure to £15k, full-time was 6 weeks, a risk I was prepared to take for the discount offered. As lauchiemb says, it's not all about businesses going down the pan; this operator had cash in the bank; no overdraft. It's about business and commercial decisions such as customer loyalty and retention.
Cheers
Whirls
Firstly, if the school goes bust, the credit card company should cover the amount. Secondly, always get your medical before you commit to any flying, paid in advance or not. Thirdly, the OP has had a few lessons already so therefore knows whether he likes it or not or is likely to get airsick. Fourthly, work and family commitments are the OPs business and only he is in a position to know whether he can devote the necessary time. Let's assume he can otherwise he wouldn't be asking!!
The points about fuel surcharging, aircraft serviceability and availability though are valid and enquiries should be made about these scenarios. If the OP decides to learn full-time, then the risk of exposure is very much lessened. Similarly, aiming to fly several times a week will also lessen this risk.
I paid up front for a PPL(H). Shock, horror, what was I thinking of???
I did my PPL(H) full-time with one of the most respected operators in the business. I carried out full Dun & Bradstreet checks (they got an A1) and obtained the last two years worth of Financial Statements. Therefore, my exposure to £15k, full-time was 6 weeks, a risk I was prepared to take for the discount offered. As lauchiemb says, it's not all about businesses going down the pan; this operator had cash in the bank; no overdraft. It's about business and commercial decisions such as customer loyalty and retention.
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dependant upon how often you intend to fly pay them in £500-1000 chunks, that way if anything does happen you wont get too badly burnt. Certainly do not pay them £5k!!!!
If they want £5k up front and wont accept anything smaller then I would question their motives and look elsewhere.
Ask about their refund policies if you want to get your balance returned for whatever reason, some flying schools have been known to charge student for refunds and in some cases run off with their entire credit balance!
J.
If they want £5k up front and wont accept anything smaller then I would question their motives and look elsewhere.
Ask about their refund policies if you want to get your balance returned for whatever reason, some flying schools have been known to charge student for refunds and in some cases run off with their entire credit balance!
J.
Upto The Buffers
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Leeds/Bradford
Age: 48
Posts: 1,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you've said, use a credit card. That way you have the protection of the Consumer Credit Act, which entitles you to reimbursement from your credit card company if you do not receive the goods/services you paid for. Some people don't understand these rights, and simply say NO NO NO. That's a rather uneducated perspective.
Cash, No. Cheque No, Debit card, No. I'll agree that much as it gives you absolutely no legal comeback, but a credit card does give you a good level of protection in law. Pay as much as you need to in order to obtain a decent discount, but as mentioned above, question why they would want more than 10hrs paid up front.
Cash, No. Cheque No, Debit card, No. I'll agree that much as it gives you absolutely no legal comeback, but a credit card does give you a good level of protection in law. Pay as much as you need to in order to obtain a decent discount, but as mentioned above, question why they would want more than 10hrs paid up front.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Woking
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was training at a school at Leavesden and one day I turned up for a lesson and the school and the aeroplanes had all gone. An empty hangar. Luckily, despite endless amazing offers, I had turned down paying in advance. Other people lost up to £2000.
Don't.
Bernie
Don't.
Bernie
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Urf
Age: 55
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I blundered in rather naively, not considering club going bust etc, and paid a club half of a PPL instalment, followed by 2nd half after 22 hours. This was after 3 trial flights in different schools. The club has been going for 80 years and had a "good feel" about it. The first place I went to had a deal where you could pay all upfront but had to guarantee to complete in 6 months! I walked away... The school I ended up in gave me a guarantee of fixed prices despite AVGAS increases, and, in the end, threw in an inclusive night rating.
I found that not having to pay each time hugely increased my enjoyment, and not thinking "there's another tenner" after each touch & go helps greatly! It saved me money in the end, an I completed my ppl much faster than I otherwise would have (which, of course, will end up costing me more money!) I am not denying there are risks, but it worked out well for me. Do consider trying 3 or 4 trial lessons with different clubs & write off the cost the way you would a house survey - it will save you the money in the long term! You will get a good feel for the club which works for you.
I found that not having to pay each time hugely increased my enjoyment, and not thinking "there's another tenner" after each touch & go helps greatly! It saved me money in the end, an I completed my ppl much faster than I otherwise would have (which, of course, will end up costing me more money!) I am not denying there are risks, but it worked out well for me. Do consider trying 3 or 4 trial lessons with different clubs & write off the cost the way you would a house survey - it will save you the money in the long term! You will get a good feel for the club which works for you.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 2,118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bern 444 as well as turning up and finding that the school and the aeroplanes had all gone, presumably you also found that the entire airfield had gone? Didn't Leavesden close donkey's years ago?...
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Hunched over a keyboard
Posts: 1,193
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We ask our students to pay as they go - settling up at the end of the day for the flying they've just done. They get a discounted rate if they sign up for an intensive package (full time PPL) but we never ask them to pay a lump sum up front.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
moggiee, that sounds ideal, where are you based?
The school I'm looking to hire from now has a standard hourly rate, or if you pay a lump sum you get 10 hours for the price of 9.
The school I'm looking to hire from now has a standard hourly rate, or if you pay a lump sum you get 10 hours for the price of 9.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Strathaven Airfield
Posts: 895
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At Strathaven - on microlights - we don't take up front payments except from Gift Vouchers and from people buying out initial five hour package (saves them about 50 quid).
Equally, we don't deal with the big gift agencies.
Why?
Well, I think we are the only flying school to have stopped trading at Cumbernauld (our local licenced airfield) without going bust (we moved because we bought Strathaven).
And look what happened to Red Letter Days (or earlier this month, Days To Amaze).
So we don't like people owing us huge amounts, and we don't like owing people huge amounts.
Flying schools are pretty cash positive enough anyway, since we pay for fuel a month in arrears - thanks to wonderful credit cards - and only pay for what we use! And we have all that gift voucher money from Xmas!
Very best,
XA
ps. The above is not meant to mean that any of the flying schools - light aircraft or helicopter - at Cumbernauld are in danger of going down the tubes.
Nor is it meant to mean that any of the gift voucher companies are in danger of going down the tubes.
As the government forces financial people to say: past performance is no guide to future performance.
Equally, we don't deal with the big gift agencies.
Why?
Well, I think we are the only flying school to have stopped trading at Cumbernauld (our local licenced airfield) without going bust (we moved because we bought Strathaven).
And look what happened to Red Letter Days (or earlier this month, Days To Amaze).
So we don't like people owing us huge amounts, and we don't like owing people huge amounts.
Flying schools are pretty cash positive enough anyway, since we pay for fuel a month in arrears - thanks to wonderful credit cards - and only pay for what we use! And we have all that gift voucher money from Xmas!
Very best,
XA
ps. The above is not meant to mean that any of the flying schools - light aircraft or helicopter - at Cumbernauld are in danger of going down the tubes.
Nor is it meant to mean that any of the gift voucher companies are in danger of going down the tubes.
As the government forces financial people to say: past performance is no guide to future performance.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Woking
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bern 444 as well as turning up and finding that the school and the aeroplanes had all gone, presumably you also found that the entire airfield had gone? Didn't Leavesden close donkey's years ago?...
B
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
It's alright Bern - I too went first solo at Leavesden - in 1978.
Back to the topic - while your CC co. will cover you if your pre-payment goes South, do you have the cash to be able to move to another flying school while the CC co. sorts out what you are owed? I don't imagine it's sorted out overnight once you report it. My guess is that it could take months.
Back to the topic - while your CC co. will cover you if your pre-payment goes South, do you have the cash to be able to move to another flying school while the CC co. sorts out what you are owed? I don't imagine it's sorted out overnight once you report it. My guess is that it could take months.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Previous posters have pretty much covered all the pros and cons. Whirlygig in particular tells it exactly as it is. Basically you are taking a calculated risk...but you ARE taking a risk. On the other hand, if it works you are saving money.
It's a decision...and it's yours, and yours alone. And learning to take decisions and balance risks is an excellent lesson for a soon-to-be pilot.
It's a decision...and it's yours, and yours alone. And learning to take decisions and balance risks is an excellent lesson for a soon-to-be pilot.