Vans RV-9A
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 178
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From: Hampshire
Vans RV-9A
Hi folks, I am half-heartedly contemplating starting a build of an RV-9A (to IFR equip spec) and was wondering if anyone could answer a few regulatory questions for me concerning homebuilts....
1. If I do build an RV-9 could I fly airways (if suitably equiped)???
2. Could I take it outside UK??
I suppose these might sound like silly questions but basically I want to know if I can operate one as I would, say, an Arrow and do all the stuff I want to do such as continental trips, bit of airways stuff etc.
I'm just a bit confused by the regs and how they affect the operation of homebuilts such as the RV-9 etc
Ta in advance.....
spamcan
1. If I do build an RV-9 could I fly airways (if suitably equiped)???
2. Could I take it outside UK??
I suppose these might sound like silly questions but basically I want to know if I can operate one as I would, say, an Arrow and do all the stuff I want to do such as continental trips, bit of airways stuff etc.
I'm just a bit confused by the regs and how they affect the operation of homebuilts such as the RV-9 etc
Ta in advance.....
spamcan
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 832
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From: East Anglia
You cannot fly IFR in a Homebuilt PFA/LAA permit aircraft. Some countries require IFR to follow airways, some (France I think) allows VFR on the lower levels of airways.
There is talk of this changing, but don't hold your breath.
You can fly abroad. Some countries require you to get overflight permission for each aircraft individually, some countries have blanket rights. The PFA/LAA website has the list, but most of the countries close to the UK have reciprocal rights, so you can fly there without doing anything.
DJ
There is talk of this changing, but don't hold your breath.
You can fly abroad. Some countries require you to get overflight permission for each aircraft individually, some countries have blanket rights. The PFA/LAA website has the list, but most of the countries close to the UK have reciprocal rights, so you can fly there without doing anything.
DJ
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Midlands
1. If I do build an RV-9 could I fly airways (if suitably equiped)???
You are restricted to daytime VFR only.
2. Could I take it outside UK??
The permit will say you need permission of the state you are visiting. In practice a standard agreement exists to let you just fly, the exceptions being the Channel islands, Belgium and Spain, all of which will let you in but you have to write in advance.
Rod1
You are restricted to daytime VFR only.
2. Could I take it outside UK??
The permit will say you need permission of the state you are visiting. In practice a standard agreement exists to let you just fly, the exceptions being the Channel islands, Belgium and Spain, all of which will let you in but you have to write in advance.
Rod1
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 229
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From: Worcs/Glos border
"You cannot fly IFR in a Homebuilt PFA/LAA permit aircraft."
Not strictly true, you can fly IFR in VMC (in any aircraft). <pedant mode off>
In all other respects, wot ZA and Rod1 said.
In order to build an RV, you will need to be whole-hearted I'm afraid.
I see you have already moved from RV9A in the title to RV9 in the post - a most wise decision IMHO.
Not strictly true, you can fly IFR in VMC (in any aircraft). <pedant mode off>
In all other respects, wot ZA and Rod1 said.
In order to build an RV, you will need to be whole-hearted I'm afraid.
I see you have already moved from RV9A in the title to RV9 in the post - a most wise decision IMHO.
Joined: May 2001
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From: UK
It is the usual old chestnut - no instrument qualification is required to operate IFR ourside controlled airspace in the UK but conditions need to be VMC however in the case of homebuilts the legislation specifically over rides the "usual" rule by specifying the aircraft may only be operated under VFR and therefore whilst you can be in VMC but IFR you can only be VFR in VMC. It is the aircraft that is the restricting element not the pilot.
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Midlands
“It is likely that travel between EU countries will no longer need special permissions.
It is possible that IFR may be permitted in pernit a/c. It is being talked about anyway.”
The special permissions are already a non problem. The problem with building an aircraft now and expecting it to be IFR later is huge. We have no idea what the new rules will be. One possible scenario is you will have to build an exact duplicate of a factory approved machine to get the VFR restriction limited. Another is it would be assessed against a set of currently unknown criteria. If I was building my MCR now I would go for a full uncertified Glass panel, but I expect this would stop any chance of removing the restriction.
RV7 v RV9
When I was looking 5 – 6 years ago I put the RV9 on the short list because you can use quite small engines with low fuel burn. In the end the considerable savings offered in running costs by the Rotax won the day. With the price of Avgas likely to hit £2 soon and £3 in the not too distant I would be very nervous of anything burning more than 15 – 20 lph, or something which could not be run on Mogas. Despite my MCR only burning 15lph of Mogas, fuel is still my largest single cost
Rod1
It is possible that IFR may be permitted in pernit a/c. It is being talked about anyway.”
The special permissions are already a non problem. The problem with building an aircraft now and expecting it to be IFR later is huge. We have no idea what the new rules will be. One possible scenario is you will have to build an exact duplicate of a factory approved machine to get the VFR restriction limited. Another is it would be assessed against a set of currently unknown criteria. If I was building my MCR now I would go for a full uncertified Glass panel, but I expect this would stop any chance of removing the restriction.
RV7 v RV9
When I was looking 5 – 6 years ago I put the RV9 on the short list because you can use quite small engines with low fuel burn. In the end the considerable savings offered in running costs by the Rotax won the day. With the price of Avgas likely to hit £2 soon and £3 in the not too distant I would be very nervous of anything burning more than 15 – 20 lph, or something which could not be run on Mogas. Despite my MCR only burning 15lph of Mogas, fuel is still my largest single cost
Rod1
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,966
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From: Norfolk
Positive Mental Attitude
I am half-heartedly contemplating
Embarking on an aeroplane build is not something that should be approached half-heartedly; I suggest that with that mindset it is unlikely ever to fly.
No criticism implied - building is a huge commitment, even renovation/rebuilding is a far larger job than many folk perceive and the harsh reality of the amount of physical work can be very daunting!
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 178
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From: Hampshire
Thanks for the replies folks....
Sorry I was not making myself crystal clear here. When I said half-heartedly I was referring to the initial will I/wont I of buying a kit in the first place. As for the motivation to build and subsequently complete, it is there 110%. Having been a motor mechanic many moons ago I have no doubts about my ability and im not lacking in the confidence department either. Having briefly read both the Vans and RVUK websites I gather the technical complexity is not, say, in the realms of building a 'plan only' aircraft. I have a reasonable amount of space in my workshop and have a vast amount of tools gathered from my years as a mechanic so these boxes are ticked also.
Having looked further on Vans website I feel that an RV-7A may better suit my needs as opposed to the RV-9A (sorry folks, tricycle all the way for me
).
However, I am still trying to assess my long-term needs from an aircraft...I intend to get an IR within the next 5 years and looking at the broader picture would like to fly around the UK and possibly do some continental trips too. However if I cannot expect to use my Vans and IR together legally then perhaps I should look at something else??? I just dont know at the moment and this is the frustrating part. The sensible me says buy an RV-7A which will still allow me to bumble up and down the country easily but theres another part that says I should buy something capable of IMC flight.
The other problem is that an RV-7A with the 200hp option will cruise just shy of 200knots at reasonable economy while an IFR certified A/C, say a Cessna 152 will cruise at less than half that and gulp fuel at an alarming rate.
Anyone with words of advice who have perhaps been in the same position??
Spamcan
In that case, I suggest that you buy one that somebody else has completed.
Embarking on an aeroplane build is not something that should be approached half-heartedly; I suggest that with that mindset it is unlikely ever to fly.
No criticism implied - building is a huge commitment, even renovation/rebuilding is a far larger job than many folk perceive and the harsh reality of the amount of physical work can be very daunting!
Embarking on an aeroplane build is not something that should be approached half-heartedly; I suggest that with that mindset it is unlikely ever to fly.
No criticism implied - building is a huge commitment, even renovation/rebuilding is a far larger job than many folk perceive and the harsh reality of the amount of physical work can be very daunting!
Having looked further on Vans website I feel that an RV-7A may better suit my needs as opposed to the RV-9A (sorry folks, tricycle all the way for me
).However, I am still trying to assess my long-term needs from an aircraft...I intend to get an IR within the next 5 years and looking at the broader picture would like to fly around the UK and possibly do some continental trips too. However if I cannot expect to use my Vans and IR together legally then perhaps I should look at something else??? I just dont know at the moment and this is the frustrating part. The sensible me says buy an RV-7A which will still allow me to bumble up and down the country easily but theres another part that says I should buy something capable of IMC flight.
The other problem is that an RV-7A with the 200hp option will cruise just shy of 200knots at reasonable economy while an IFR certified A/C, say a Cessna 152 will cruise at less than half that and gulp fuel at an alarming rate.
Anyone with words of advice who have perhaps been in the same position??
Spamcan
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
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From: Midlands
“The other problem is that an RV-7A with the 200hp option will cruise just shy of 200knots at reasonable economy while an IFR certified A/C, say a Cessna 152 will cruise at less than half that and gulp fuel at an alarming rate.”
This is a bit hard on the 152. A 152 will burn about 20lph and a 200hp lyk will burn 40 lph. Admittedly the RV will be much faster and more fun.
In the end it comes down to cost. If you can afford an IR and a top of the range Cirrus then you are home free and no need to build. If you want to build then assume no IFR allowed.
I owned a selection of C of A IFR “4 seaters” and flew extensively on my IMCR. After 700 hours several things became apparent.
1 I almost never used the third seat (the 4th not possible anyway for W&B)
2 Most of the “IFR” flights were actually possible VFR. This is self evident if you do a lot of European touring as your IMCR is not valid, but we all still fly round quite happily in a Fly for Fun environment.
3 Most of the aircraft handled like a soggy balloons
4 Most struggled with shortish strips
5 Most struggled to climb in hot weather, which almost cost me on more than on occasion.
6 The cost of fuel and maintenance was set to rise dramatically and price me out of the sky, or at least restrict my flying time.
This resulted in me spending £50k and 3 years building a Rotax powered MCR. I actually get more mission capability out of this than I did out of my IFR machines, but I fly for fun and wanted fast, good stol, good handling and good R of C. I am saving about £10k a year in running costs which will rise rapidly over the next few years and I am having more fun!
Rod1
This is a bit hard on the 152. A 152 will burn about 20lph and a 200hp lyk will burn 40 lph. Admittedly the RV will be much faster and more fun.
In the end it comes down to cost. If you can afford an IR and a top of the range Cirrus then you are home free and no need to build. If you want to build then assume no IFR allowed.
I owned a selection of C of A IFR “4 seaters” and flew extensively on my IMCR. After 700 hours several things became apparent.
1 I almost never used the third seat (the 4th not possible anyway for W&B)
2 Most of the “IFR” flights were actually possible VFR. This is self evident if you do a lot of European touring as your IMCR is not valid, but we all still fly round quite happily in a Fly for Fun environment.
3 Most of the aircraft handled like a soggy balloons
4 Most struggled with shortish strips
5 Most struggled to climb in hot weather, which almost cost me on more than on occasion.
6 The cost of fuel and maintenance was set to rise dramatically and price me out of the sky, or at least restrict my flying time.
This resulted in me spending £50k and 3 years building a Rotax powered MCR. I actually get more mission capability out of this than I did out of my IFR machines, but I fly for fun and wanted fast, good stol, good handling and good R of C. I am saving about £10k a year in running costs which will rise rapidly over the next few years and I am having more fun!
Rod1
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 178
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From: Hampshire
Thanks for that Rod, thats exactly the thing I'm after; peoples experiences.
TBH, I dont need 4 seats as the missus would NEVER fly with me again anyway (err, no bearing on my flying skills, just that she was a bit put of by the size of the 152 I took her up in). All I would need is a 2 seater so I could fly with friends etc and a reasonable range. Vans quote between 750-920 SM for the 200hp RV-7A which is probably more than I need. I would be planning on doing the occassional Hampshire-Fife route which I would prefer to do direct with no fuel stops.
TBH I couldnt afford a cirrus as much as I would love one. The beauty of homebuilt is that the costs can be spread by buying sections at a time.
Spamcan
TBH, I dont need 4 seats as the missus would NEVER fly with me again anyway (err, no bearing on my flying skills, just that she was a bit put of by the size of the 152 I took her up in). All I would need is a 2 seater so I could fly with friends etc and a reasonable range. Vans quote between 750-920 SM for the 200hp RV-7A which is probably more than I need. I would be planning on doing the occassional Hampshire-Fife route which I would prefer to do direct with no fuel stops.
TBH I couldnt afford a cirrus as much as I would love one. The beauty of homebuilt is that the costs can be spread by buying sections at a time.
Spamcan
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,214
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From: S Warwickshire
Not much to add to the previous replies, except that I'd be very wary of the nosewheel RVs. They often have a lot of weight on the nosewheel and there have been many collapse incidents, often in the hands of very experienced and competent pilots.
The tailwheels save a bit on cost, weight, drag and maintenance and are very easy handling.
As for -9 or -7; the -7s are a little faster and sportier (cleared for aeros) whereas the -9s can lift more, land a bit shorter and slightly easier handling.
Personally, I prefer the tandem seat models.
The tailwheels save a bit on cost, weight, drag and maintenance and are very easy handling.
As for -9 or -7; the -7s are a little faster and sportier (cleared for aeros) whereas the -9s can lift more, land a bit shorter and slightly easier handling.
Personally, I prefer the tandem seat models.
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 913
Likes: 1
From: somewhere in Oz
If you are even remotely thinking about building, then remember thousands of people were not wrong in choosing an RV. If you enjoy working with your hands and are thinking about an RV, then don't delay - leap right in with both feet. Time is of the essence and you will thoroughly enjoy it (and be frustrated and disillusioned etc...) but it is an amazing experience.
Go for it and save the IFR decisions for later.
A
(RV-8 under construction)
PS: or migrate to the US or Australia where the experimental regulations are superb and IFR is possible.
Go for it and save the IFR decisions for later.
A
(RV-8 under construction)
PS: or migrate to the US or Australia where the experimental regulations are superb and IFR is possible.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,044
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From: UK
SD... We've built an RV-8 now flying since late Oct 07 with just over 80hours on it... great machine! See http://www.g-hilz.co.uk RV-7(A) effectively same machine but SBS...
200HP unnecessary
Our 180HP FI does 180HP to about 20' after takeoff then throttle back a LOT.
As above, watch the NW versions
An NTSB investigaiton into numerous NW collapses, some with the aircraft flipping right over, has led to a recent "modified" design... yet 2 of these (1 UK, 1 USA) have collapsed already, the UK very nearly flipped as well 
The reasons for this are numerous, but the "risks" are higher with an RV NW aircraft than most others...
OTOH the taildraggers are fairly benign (I'd never flown a taildragger before) relative to others out there... so you end up with the "risks" being closer than normal for a NW v TW comparison
NoD
200HP unnecessary
Our 180HP FI does 180HP to about 20' after takeoff then throttle back a LOT.As above, watch the NW versions
An NTSB investigaiton into numerous NW collapses, some with the aircraft flipping right over, has led to a recent "modified" design... yet 2 of these (1 UK, 1 USA) have collapsed already, the UK very nearly flipped as well The reasons for this are numerous, but the "risks" are higher with an RV NW aircraft than most others...OTOH the taildraggers are fairly benign (I'd never flown a taildragger before) relative to others out there... so you end up with the "risks" being closer than normal for a NW v TW comparison
NoD
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,359
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From: Midlands
Can someone please tell me why you would want to take a very good aircraft (RV-9) and turn it into a death trap by putting a nose wheel on it?
Because this is what the majority of the punters want. If a pilot does his training on a NW he will probably fly NW from then on. The tail dragger MCR has not even been UK approved as UK requirements were unique and the numbers likely to be sold were too small to make it worth the effort. The new rules will of course change this.
Rod1
Because this is what the majority of the punters want. If a pilot does his training on a NW he will probably fly NW from then on. The tail dragger MCR has not even been UK approved as UK requirements were unique and the numbers likely to be sold were too small to make it worth the effort. The new rules will of course change this.
Rod1
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 178
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From: Hampshire
Can someone please tell me why you would want to take a very good aircraft (RV-9) and turn it into a death trap by putting a nose wheel on it?
I shall investigate the RV NW issues further.
Spamcan