Flying overweight
Pompey till I die
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Flying overweight
Reading through the latest June pulications of AAIB it's suprising how many people are flying, and crashing, overweight. Both the PA28R at Oban and the R44 in Cumbria.
Do pilot's routinely fly overweight ? Or is it just the ones that inevitably crash.
I am always meticulous over the W&B. In a Pa28 with 2325lb MTOW is usually overweight by a few lbs with 2x 230lb men and full fuel. Yet I've witnessed people take off in that configuration.
Does everybody fly a couple of lbs over ? Or is it just the ones that crash ?
Do pilot's routinely fly overweight ? Or is it just the ones that inevitably crash.
I am always meticulous over the W&B. In a Pa28 with 2325lb MTOW is usually overweight by a few lbs with 2x 230lb men and full fuel. Yet I've witnessed people take off in that configuration.
Does everybody fly a couple of lbs over ? Or is it just the ones that crash ?
I suspect it's more common with smaller aircraft where the margins are slimmer with the usual configuration of 2 chaps and full fuel. I would imagine that almost every training flight in C152s where I trained takes off overweight.
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I think you need to separate the aircraft which crash because they are over weight and the aircraft which are found to be overweight after an accident which had nothing to do with being overweight. In the case of the Oban accident the aircraft was overweight but it is very unlikely it contributed to the accident.
I think a lack of planning tends to kill people. Lack of planning increases the likelihood of being overweight and out of balance, but it also leads to flying in poor weather, not doing a good DI, etc etc. Added to this is that some pilots have not done a W & B since qualifying. I use Navbox for my w & b and have a print out of the graph in the aircraft for refrence.
As to how frequently people fly outside W & B, it is hard to say with any accuracy. You can rarely tell by just looking as the aircraft parks up.
Rod1
I think a lack of planning tends to kill people. Lack of planning increases the likelihood of being overweight and out of balance, but it also leads to flying in poor weather, not doing a good DI, etc etc. Added to this is that some pilots have not done a W & B since qualifying. I use Navbox for my w & b and have a print out of the graph in the aircraft for refrence.
As to how frequently people fly outside W & B, it is hard to say with any accuracy. You can rarely tell by just looking as the aircraft parks up.
Rod1
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MH152
You've hit the nail on the head. The attitude of many flying instructors is "It'll be alright there's a big safety margin." The student thinks this is normal.
I learned to fly in a C152 and occasionally an aerobat with even less available payload. The instructor & I were nearly 30 stone between us. With full tanks we were well overweight but the little 152s flew perfectly.
I have since discovered not all aircraft are so forgiving.
DO
You've hit the nail on the head. The attitude of many flying instructors is "It'll be alright there's a big safety margin." The student thinks this is normal.
I learned to fly in a C152 and occasionally an aerobat with even less available payload. The instructor & I were nearly 30 stone between us. With full tanks we were well overweight but the little 152s flew perfectly.
I have since discovered not all aircraft are so forgiving.
DO
Northern Monkey
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Although equally illegal, I would suggest there is a big difference between accidentally flying overweight, and not being aware of it, and with flying overweight, while knowing how much overweight you are, the position of the C of G, and the effect that this will have on aircraft performance, stability and handling
If you fly outside the certificated W&B limits, you are almost certainly operating illegally, have just compromised your insurance and appointed yourself to the role of test pilot. 
Yes, the C152 and others will fly over-gross, but you are just more hostage to fortune than usual if you accept it. Out of CofG is particularly hazardous IMHO. Put the two together and ...
Caveat aviator.
Yes, the C152 and others will fly over-gross, but you are just more hostage to fortune than usual if you accept it. Out of CofG is particularly hazardous IMHO. Put the two together and ...
Caveat aviator.
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I recently took the decision to take off marginally (about 50lbs) overweight in a 172 on the basis that the 2.5 hour flight would leave me well within the W&B when landing at the planned time (luckily I didn't have an emergency or unplanned early landing so that panned out OK).
This left me wondering if insurance wise, had push come to shove, would the insurance be void for the entire flight or just the period of the flight when the aircraft was overweight.
It also left me wondering just how forgiving the limits are - I had a couple of female passengers who were quite uncomfortable about giving their weight & a chap who didn't know his, so short of installing scales in the club the accuracy of self report W&B info must be subject to scepticism.
Regards all, enq.
This left me wondering if insurance wise, had push come to shove, would the insurance be void for the entire flight or just the period of the flight when the aircraft was overweight.
It also left me wondering just how forgiving the limits are - I had a couple of female passengers who were quite uncomfortable about giving their weight & a chap who didn't know his, so short of installing scales in the club the accuracy of self report W&B info must be subject to scepticism.
Regards all, enq.
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Although equally illegal, I would suggest there is a big difference between accidentally flying overweight, and not being aware of it, and with flying overweight, while knowing how much overweight you are, the position of the C of G, and the effect that this will have on aircraft performance, stability and handling
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How much overweight is TOO much overweight? How far outside the w/b graph is TOO far? This is what bothers me most about loading outside the limits. Our performance graphs don't provide this information because if they did the graphs and limits would be different. Ofcourse there's a certain safety margin which is just that, a safety margin. If you don't know the exact weight and it happens to be 100 lbs more than you think, is it going to kill you? Probably not, but calculating with 100 lbs overweight and then actually having 200 may put you in a dire situation.
Stick to the books.
As for training overweight. My god, what are we teaching people...
Perhaps 3 inches of ice on the wings is ok too.
What about 3 quarts of oil?
How high above the 1500 foot ceiling can you go before it becomes dangerous?
How about that TFR? Is 10 miles into it OK?
A 300 m grass runway, will it be enough for takeoff on a 35degC day at 5000 feet in a C150 at 100 lbs over gross?
If we don't use ALL the limits as limits all the time, how do you know which ones are OK to break, and when?
Stick to the books.
As for training overweight. My god, what are we teaching people...
Perhaps 3 inches of ice on the wings is ok too.
What about 3 quarts of oil?
How high above the 1500 foot ceiling can you go before it becomes dangerous?
How about that TFR? Is 10 miles into it OK?
A 300 m grass runway, will it be enough for takeoff on a 35degC day at 5000 feet in a C150 at 100 lbs over gross?
If we don't use ALL the limits as limits all the time, how do you know which ones are OK to break, and when?
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While training in a warrior we did w&b for steep turns etc and found out with 2 of us were both 17 stone could only carry 10 gallons of fuel and stay in the correct c0g for unusal manovering, needless to say we took tabs on 1 side as running out of fuel would have been embarrassing. Had a share in a 140 after that and was allways damm carefull on w&b as 140`s are easy to overload re Sandown last year.
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Like everything else, bit of common sense always helps.
Taking off 10lbs overweight from a long tarmac runway is probably not a mortal sin.
The same, on a short grass strip on a hot day, could be critical.
Just because the speed limit says 50mph, you are not gonna drive at 50 in torrential rain and heavy traffic...
The same road, no traffic, good weather, might feel extremely slow at 55..
Ivor
Taking off 10lbs overweight from a long tarmac runway is probably not a mortal sin.
The same, on a short grass strip on a hot day, could be critical.
Just because the speed limit says 50mph, you are not gonna drive at 50 in torrential rain and heavy traffic...
The same road, no traffic, good weather, might feel extremely slow at 55..
Ivor
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If you take off weighing above the MTOW and have an incident that involves an insurance claim, the insurance assessor will calculate your total AUW at take-off and if an ounce (gram) over your MTOW for that flight, they will not pay out, and you may also find the CAA chasing you for flying illegally.
Families of any fatalities may also sue you/your estate for the death of their loved one and your gross negligence! Is it worth it?
Families of any fatalities may also sue you/your estate for the death of their loved one and your gross negligence! Is it worth it?
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It is very easy to create an excel chart of your aircraft w&b. It takes 10 minutes to try some 'usual' situations and explore what happens to the cofg.
I've done that for the last 3 aircraft I have flown regularly and it has given me a good feel for whether or not a detailed w&b is needed. In the vast majority of cases it has not been necessary.
On the majority of aircraft getting outside the cofg limits takes a loading that looks unusual. Overloading is really more of a performance issue - unless you are deliberately going to do things which stress the aircraft - like aeros.
One of my aircraft had a detailed set of performance curves at varying weights which would allow you to comfortably extrapolate performance beyond mauw (well to a point probably). And if you stayed inside those (granted unproven) limits you could probably fly forever without incident.
And that is the crux of the issue many small aircraft are routinely overloaded and nothing happens apart from the performance deteriorating somewhat. However try two flights back to back in the same light aircraft - extreme forward cofg and extreme rear cofg at similar-ish weights. I've done that in my present aircraft as one of those 'interesting things to do'. And it certainly was - you would barely believe it was the same aircraft. A real eye opener.
I've done that for the last 3 aircraft I have flown regularly and it has given me a good feel for whether or not a detailed w&b is needed. In the vast majority of cases it has not been necessary.
On the majority of aircraft getting outside the cofg limits takes a loading that looks unusual. Overloading is really more of a performance issue - unless you are deliberately going to do things which stress the aircraft - like aeros.
One of my aircraft had a detailed set of performance curves at varying weights which would allow you to comfortably extrapolate performance beyond mauw (well to a point probably). And if you stayed inside those (granted unproven) limits you could probably fly forever without incident.
And that is the crux of the issue many small aircraft are routinely overloaded and nothing happens apart from the performance deteriorating somewhat. However try two flights back to back in the same light aircraft - extreme forward cofg and extreme rear cofg at similar-ish weights. I've done that in my present aircraft as one of those 'interesting things to do'. And it certainly was - you would barely believe it was the same aircraft. A real eye opener.
If you take off weighing above the MTOW and have an incident that involves an insurance claim, the insurance assessor will calculate your total AUW at take-off and if an ounce (gram) over your MTOW for that flight, they will not pay out
The insurers would have to prove that the overweight condition was causative to the incident to avoid payment. Of course, there may be many incidents where it could be argued W&B was contributory, but equally, there will be many incidents where it has no relevance)
I am not condoning overweight flying though
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I suspect it's more common with smaller aircraft where the margins are slimmer with the usual configuration of 2 chaps and full fuel. I would imagine that almost every training flight in C152s where I trained takes off overweight.
As a flight instructor, I have no tolerance for an operation out of safe limits, or operating outside the aircraft limitations. That includes the weight and balance. A student must complete a weight and balance calculation before every flight, and it is NEVER acceptable to operate, or allow a student to operate overweight or with the center of gravity outside limits.
Particularly in the instructing arena, it's a sacred responsibility on the part of the instructor to provide an example. A student should never be given the impression, not even implied,that operation that is unsafe or illegal is in any way acceptable. It's not.
If a student wants to fly in a Cessna 152, then the numbers must work out...otherwise the student will be moving to a 172. Even if the numbers work out but performance is compromised to the point of safety (very likely at many of the airfields where I've instructed...which have 10,000' density altitude or more in the summer), then we're moving to the bigger airplane.
Overweight operation isn't acceptable in any other kind of flying operation, either. I often find that weight must be reduced for performance reasons, rather than the actual weight limits, before the weight limits are ever reached.
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Check the weights.
Have you actually ever had the weights confirmed?
I've come across three aircraft that were way off what the numbers were supposed to be when we actually used the scales. One of them had an actual cog way aft of datum. When I started to tear things apart I found a jackstand base, and two large wrenches that weighed 20 pound apiece, nicely wrapped in bubble wrap tied up in the tail. All in all that plane was 290 pounds empty over the 1675 that it was supposed to be. How long had that extra weight been there? How many flights had been conducted over gross and aft of allowable cog?
I've come across three aircraft that were way off what the numbers were supposed to be when we actually used the scales. One of them had an actual cog way aft of datum. When I started to tear things apart I found a jackstand base, and two large wrenches that weighed 20 pound apiece, nicely wrapped in bubble wrap tied up in the tail. All in all that plane was 290 pounds empty over the 1675 that it was supposed to be. How long had that extra weight been there? How many flights had been conducted over gross and aft of allowable cog?
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I carry two weight and balance charts from Navbox in my flight bag.
One is me amd Mrs Johnm with full fuel and a bit of luggage and kit, the other is me and Mrs Johnm our two fat friends and tabs fuel and a bit of luggage and kit.
Both fit the profile of my Archer 2 and allow us to get across the channel happily
One is me amd Mrs Johnm with full fuel and a bit of luggage and kit, the other is me and Mrs Johnm our two fat friends and tabs fuel and a bit of luggage and kit.
Both fit the profile of my Archer 2 and allow us to get across the channel happily
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Using data from the POH, I made my own little A6 weight and balance forms for the two a/c I fly. With experience I found the weight calculation vital under some circumstances (eg full tanks, 2/3 or more heavy males) and the CG less so. For every flight other than solo or 2 on board with half fuel, I scribble down the weights onto my form and add them up to check I'm within the T/O and landing limits for my a/c. If the config is slightly different (couple of cases of wine to bring back from France) then I do a full CG calculation too.
If anything happened, even through no fault of one's own, this is the first thing the AAIB would be doing. If you're too lazy to know where you are in relation to the MTOW of your plane, what other shortcuts are you taking?
If anything happened, even through no fault of one's own, this is the first thing the AAIB would be doing. If you're too lazy to know where you are in relation to the MTOW of your plane, what other shortcuts are you taking?
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so short of installing scales in the club
(In my club, last time I looked, they were hidden under a bookshelf, but you knew where to look if you needed them. Eg, if an instructor said "ok, do the W&B for this check flight then" you'd tell him to get on the scales.)