Another mistake, another lesson learned....

[Hireandhire]

Todays Cautionary Tale.

Having failed to get past Bristol's weather en-route to the Dunkeswell LAA rally today, I turned back to Halfpenny Green (great welcome) and then on again Northeast towards Cannock.
Mistake.
Shortly after t/o called Cosford Approach because they were obviously busy before tomorrows airshow, and found out EGBO is in a 10nm radius notamed zone.
No drama, no bones broken but:

1. I knew Cosford airshow is on tomorrow but missed todays notam
2. I missed todays notam because it is shown by Notamplot as "aerodrome nav warning" not an "en-route"
3 I had not previously realised that aerodrome warnings are displayed only under a second tab in Notamplot.

This is all entirely my responsibility.
Question:what is it about the below that parses it only into "Aerodromes"?


Ref: H1352/08
FIR: EGTT
Code: WALW
Traffic: VFR IFR
Purpose: Misc
Scope: Aerodrome Nav Warning
Lower limit (FL): 000
Upper limit (FL): 050
Centre and radius (nm): 5238N00218W010
Parent ICAO: EGWC
Start date/time: 30/05/2008 10:15 UTC
End date/time: 01/06/2008 17:15 UTC
Activity period: MAY 30-31 1015-1515, JUN 01 0945-1715
Lower height limit: 000
Upper height limit: 050

MAJOR AIR DISPLAY WITH HISTORIC, MILITARY AND CIVILIAN FAST JET
DISPLAYS WI 10NM RADIUS 5238N 00218W (RAF COSFORD - WEST MIDLANDS).
OPS CONTROL RAF COSFORD ATC 01902 372393 EXT 7582. SEE SEPARATE
NOTAMS FOR RED ARROWS AND RAF ROLE DEMONSTRATION RESTRICTED AREAS.
AUS 2008-06-0035/1440/AS1


Learn from my mistakes! and fly safe

regards
HnH

[Tiger_mate]

RESPECT

Well done, it takes professionalism to stand up and confess to a lesson learnt, and I dare say that several viewers would have fallen into the same trap. A good example to us all.

[XX621]

Just a thought - there is a great bit of software called NotamPro which gives a graphical depiction of all current NOTAMS...very handy. This is not an ad...I am happy customer and feel this post is appropriate and relevant.

[Hireandhire]

XX621 hi

Does NotamPro display en-route and aerodrome notams plotted together? I've long used NotamPlot which does good graphical display but didn't realise the significance of the two separate tabs.

It still seems odd to me to notam 314 square miles of airspace surface upto 5000' just as "aerodrome nav warning".

I'm still not making excuses!

regards
HnH
(thread drift - just got back from watching 1920's 27 litre Hispano aero-engined race cars growl round Donington Park. Very nice but not as good as their intended purpose !!)

[411A]

Hmmm, lesson learned.


However...

1. I knew Cosford airshow is on tomorrow but missed todays notam
2. I missed todays notam because it is shown by Notamplot as "aerodrome nav warning" not an "en-route"
3 I had not previously realised that aerodrome warnings are displayed only under a second tab in Notamplot.

I would presume that you obtained a 'proper' briefing'...yes?
If so, it left a lot to be desired.
As Lockheed-Martin has taken over the FSS briefing responsibilities in the USA, 'problems' have developed.
However, these are on the mend..

Result?
Check carefully, an some NOTAMS are not where they had previously thought to have been.
Lockheed-Martin has got the message...ship up...or ship out.
The FAA means business.

In the UK, relevant NOTAM issueance is...well...obtuse.

[neilmac]

NOTAMs!

Fair play to you for posting your NOTAM experience, I use the same system but always back it up with the a call to Hotline [phone], that always has airspace upgrades etc. Especially as the airshow season starts!

NM

[BEagle]

411A, if only the UK had something as good as your FSS system or even 1-800-WX BRIEF!

Unless you happen to be lucky, the average attitude is 'look it up on-line' in the UK - no matter how awkward of impractical that might be. Neither are there many aerodromes which offer half the welcome that even the smallest aerodrome in the US offers. All they're really interested in, for the privilege of landing on a section of decaying WW2 runway full of ruts, is the landing fee...

I saw some fabulous modern GA aircraft at ILA2008 in Berlin this week; I wonder how many people in the UK will ever be able to afford to fly one?

[TotalBeginner]

I missed todays notam because it is shown by Notamplot as "aerodrome nav warning" not an "en-route"

How strange! On the AIS site it's listed as a nav warning under en-route (EGTT)

[IO540]

Can I get one thing straight?

Is the notam problem discussed here evident when using the real (ais.org.uk or whatever it now redirects you to) website?

This kind of thing is why I have never used the graphing tools myself. Relevant notams can appear more or less anywhere. Last year I got a military exercise off Romania shows under RAC - just 3 lines among about 3000. Yet those 3 lines (had I spotted them) contained information on a route that would have avoided the exercise while still being IFR flight plan acceptable.

[Mike Cross]

It's scoped as both a/d and en-route. You'd need to ask Ian Fallon how he handles them in this situation.

The key is in the first line of the AIS screenshot. This is the "Q" line, which is part of the ICAO standard NOTAM format laid down in Annex 15 to the Chicago Convention

The line reads
Q) EGTT/QWALW/IV/M/AW/000/050/5238N00218W010
Here's the decode
EGTT - FIR it falls in
QWALW - NOTAM code derived from ICAO Doc 8400 or 8126. First character (Q) identifies the field, next two identify what it's about, and the last two indicate the condition. WALW measn "Air Display will take place". The code QRTCA used in other NOTAM for the event means "Temporary Restricted Area activated"
IV - Indicates it affects IFR and VFR flight
M - Purpose - Miscellaneous NOTAM: not subject for a briefing but available on request
AW - Aerodrome & NAV Warning
000/050 - Upper and lower limists of the activity
5238N00218W010 - Geographic centre followed by 3 digit radius of influence in nm (in this case 10nm)

So you may well ask why this is "not subject for a briefing"

The answer is that other NOTAM were issued for the event which were mandatory and were marked for inclusion in briefings (B in place of M in the purpose field). The old AIS site allowed you to choose "GENERAL" OR "GENERAL + MISC" to exclude miscellaneous NOTAM if you wanted to. Wisely the new site doesn't give you the option and includes them. Other briefing services may work differently.

In all 4 NOTAM scoped as aerodrome were issued for the event:-

Q) EGTT/QWALW/IV/M/AW/000/050/5238N00218W010
FROM: 08/05/30 10:15 TO: 08/06/01 17:15
E) MAJOR AIR DISPLAY WITH HISTORIC, MILITARY AND CIVILIAN FAST JET
DISPLAYS WI 10NM RADIUS 5238N 00218W (RAF COSFORD - WEST MIDLANDS).
OPS CONTROL RAF COSFORD ATC 01902 372393 EXT 7582. SEE SEPARATE
NOTAMS FOR RED ARROWS AND RAF ROLE DEMONSTRATION RESTRICTED AREAS.
AUS 2008-06-0035/1440/AS1
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 5000FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: MAY 30-31 1015-1515, JUN 01 0945-1715 H1352/08

Q) EGTT/QRTCA/IV/BO/AW/000/035/5238N00218W008
FROM: 08/06/01 14:25 TO: 08/06/01 15:10
E) RESTRICTED AREA (TEMPORARY) AT RAF COSFORD - WEST MIDLANDS FOR AN
RAF ROLE DEMONSTRATION WI 8NM RADIUS 523824N 0021814W. AREA
ESTABLISHED UNDER ARTICLE 96 OF THE ANO 2005 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY
WITH JSP552.201.135.9). AIC 39/2008 (MAUVE 263) DATED 22 MAY 08
REFERS. AUS 08-05-0404/1443/AS1
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 3300FT AMSL J2238/08

Q) EGTT/QWPLW/IV/M/AW/000/120/5238N00218W005
FROM: 08/06/01 10:30 TO: 08/06/01 11:30
E) PJE BY RAF FALCONS FROM C130 WI 5NM RADIUS 5238N 00218W (RAF COSFORD
- WEST MIDLANDS). HEIGHT SUBJECT TO ATC CLEARANCE. DROP TIME 1100 HRS
. SUPPORT ACFT MAY FLYPAST DROP ZONE ON COMPLETION, OPS CONTROL RAF C
OSFORD ATC 01902 372393 EXT 7582.AUS 08-06-0035/1442/AS1
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 12000FT AGL H1355/08

Q) EGTT/QRTCA/IV/BO/AW/000/085/5238N00218W006
FROM: 08/06/01 12:25 TO: 08/06/01 13:03
E) RESTRICTED AREA (TEMPORARY) AT RAF COSFORD - WEST MIDLANDS FOR A
RED ARROWS DISPLAY WI 6NM RADIUS 523824N 0021814W. AREA ESTABLISHED
UNDER ARTICLE 96 OF THE ANO 2005 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH
JSP552.201.135.9). AIC 31/2008 (MAUVE 256) DATED 24 APRIL 08 REFERS.
AUS 08-05-0404/1441/AS1
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 8300FT AMSL J2237/08

Which illustrates the difficulty of producing geographic plots as they all sit on top of each other.

I represent AOPA UK on NOTAM matters, hope this explanation is helpful.

Mike

[TheOddOne]

Mike,

I'm trying hard not to get very angry about this and I'm definitely not shooting the messenger!

Firstly, thanks for shedding a little light on the decodes, but in my view these should NEVER be visible to users. The codes were developed, like TAF and METAR codes, to satisfy a 70-yr-old communication system with extremely small bandwidth. Today, ALL these codes should be translated into plain language.

I'm an instructor. I've enough problems trying to teach students the 1:60 rule, explaining how NOTAM works so that they can self-brief before their first solo cross-countries is in my veiw an un-necessary hurdle. These complexities are the reason why so many PPLs never consult NOTAM before they set off on a trip. At our school, we've developed a narrow route brief to suit our local area that is refreshed and posted on the board daily; other users of the aerodrome are always welcome to come in and consult it and even ask an instructor for advice, FOR FREE! However, trying to explain what all the shameful gobbledegook means is a waste of time and effort.

I officiate at aerobatic competitions. We NOTAM the airspace as well as the aerodrome, but I'd say every comp we run is invaded by people bimbling through the box. We have procedures in place but inevitably having to stop mid-sequence ruins a competitor's concentration and their placing suffers as a result.

Mike, I believe that what we need is a plain-language system, not all in CAPITALS like the new site gives, which is easily accessible, showing all the relevant information for the planned route, without having to distinguish between aerodrome and airspace. Unfortunately I believe that the CAA will claim that they are required to follow Annex 15, which is outdated and designed for use by commercial air transport, not PPLs enjoying their recreation. I've got the 0500 number in my phone. I show it to everyone else and they are suprised at its existence. I understand that GASCo are shortly to re-distribute the stickers with the number on. Discussion was made about making the number more memorable, but unfortuantely it was considered 'too difficult'. I hope the above isn't too negative and thanks for giving us some representation re NOTAM.

TheOddOne.

[Mike Cross]

You're correct in a lot of what you say. The system was indeed designed for low-bandwidth systems using teleprinters, hence the upper case only business (The teleprinter alphabet is only a 5 bit code unlike the ASCII 8 bit code used for computers and does not include lower case characters). It's also a worldwide standard so it has to be able to cope with the comms available anywhere on the AFTN. I'm not an expert on the AFTN but certainly teleprinters were the standard until relatively recently.

The Q LIne is in a totally standardised format while the E line (that contains the text) is free-form. The Q line is designed for automated selection and sorting while the text field is not.

Sites like the AIS one and other briefing services use the Q line to select which NOTAM to display. Some of them also try to parse the text in the E line to display something other than the circle that would be generated by the Q line.

The Q Line appears in the AIS briefs at my behest, it wasn't there in the original implementation in 1992. The reasons for adding it were twofold:-
1. It enables you to answer the question "why the *&%$ is that in my brief?"
2. It enables people like drauk of fly.dsc.net to use the Q line to manipulate the data for alternative filters and selection criteria that are not available through the standard AIS interface.

There's no need for pilots to understand the Q line in order to understand the brief.

The actual format it is delivered in is an international standard. Like TAF & METAR the format is the same around the world so if you can understand what you're given whether your in Cosford Canberra or Calcutta.


Work is underway, led by Eurocontrol, with the support of the FAA on an xml interface for exchanging data, which will include the ability to exchange graphical data including charts and positioning information. It's called AIXM (Aeronautical Information Exchange Model) and a quick Google will bring up information. It is hoped that this will eventually be adopted as the ICAO standard, which will allow much better presentation of the data and automate the process of uploading it to FMS.

Mike

[XX621]

NotamPro, I believe, simply parses the lat/lon of all the notams which it has downloaded. It will download the entire notam file file for the entire, say London, region.

There isn't a enroute/aerodrome distinction as far as I understand...it simply works at the lower level of lat/lon geographic locations.
Disclaimer: I have only read the manual - so I could be talking utter rubbish. If anyone can show otherwise please do post.

I usually download the latest FIR notam for London FIR, zoom the map in to cover the region I'm flying, then click on the dots and read the notams. As you click on the dots it takes you to the relevant notam in the text pane.

Having read this thread though, which is highly informative, I will need to verify it is showing ALL the relevant notams.

[DFC]

So you may well ask why this is "not subject for a briefing"

The answer is that other NOTAM were issued for the event which were mandatory and were marked for inclusion in briefings (B in place of M in the purpose field). The old AIS site allowed you to choose "GENERAL" OR "GENERAL + MISC" to exclude miscellaneous NOTAM if you wanted to. Wisely the new site doesn't give you the option and includes them. Other briefing services may work differently.

Mike,

You seem to misunderstand the criteria for deciding if the NOTAM is goignt o be N, B, O or M.

The NOTAMS you display clearly show the true reason for two being M (not operationally significant and not automatically included in briefings) and two being NBO (operationally significant and included in briefings).

You will note that in the two "M" cases they are simply letting other users of class G airspace know that in a certain portion of that airspace there will be other users doing x,y,z but those users have no exclusive right regarding the airspace and while you are being made aware of their presence, you are not required to avoid the airspace and can simply operate in that airspace on a see and be seen basis just as you do in the rest of Class G. If you decide to avoid the airspace, use an ATS service etc etc is totally up to you.

The the case of the two "NBO" NOTAMS there is a case of restricted airapce and one must comply with the restriction. There is not the option to fly as normal in class G and consequently this restriction is more than simply good to know information - it is essential and operationally significant.

One could aregue that parachuting is operationally significant but ICAO do not think so because in the case of parachuting operations, they say that there should be other safeguards to the operation before it gets approval - something that the CAA seems to forget!!

------------

So in response to the initial post - yes you missed the NOTAM and it could have been a safety issue. In this case it was not. However, remember that things like notamplot do not display all the applicable notams and in order to get a full briefing you have to a) read all the plotted ones and then b) read all the unplotted ones - which makes for more reading than a simple narrow route briefing from AIS.

If you learn how to quickly and accurately define a route in the AIS briefing and use a sensible corridor width then you will find that the number of notams will be greatly reduced.

Regards,

DFC

[Hireandhire]

Thanks all.


Mike, DFC thanks. I am resolved to follow your advice and get to grips with the latest AIS site: I gave up trying and went across to graphing apps after the difficult initial launch of the Mk1 AIS interface.

As it happens I had rung the 0500 number, but did it the night before the flight (Friday night) at about 20.30/21.00.

So now that will have to done on the day of flight in future.

regards
HnH
(still not making excuses)

[Mike Cross]

DFC

Mmmmm... Wasn't trying to get into a discussion of what should go in the purpose field. It's normally decided by the sponsor, in this case it will have been CAA/DAP/AUS who have a set of standard templates they use which have been drawn up in consultation with NATS/AIS. ICAO Doc 8126 will tell you what should be applied to a particular NOTAM Code. In this example I don't have a copy of 8126 to hand but I'm fairly sure that it will tell you to use M for QWALW and BO (Operationally significant and for inclusion in PIB) for QRTCA.

I'm told by AIS that they very occaisonally change the purpose field but try not to as it generates queries from EAD and other NOTAM offices as it doesn't comply with the expected entry for the activity. A more acceptable fiddle is to use a different Q code. For example Taxiways are M while runways are BO, so giving the high speed taxiway a runway code will ensure it's included in the PIB. This is a pretty acedemic discussion if you're using the AIS site because as I mentioned earlier you'll get Misc nOTAM anyway. Others may be different.

Like you I find the AIS site fine but I appreciate that many others prefer using something else.

[bookworm]

As it happens I had rung the 0500 number, but did it the night before the flight (Friday night) at about 20.30/21.00.

But the NOTAM that you cite wouldn't have been on that info line, would it? There was no restricted airspace on 31 May.

I think the lesson for NotamPlot users is to look at both the "Enroute NOTAMs" map and the "Airfield NOTAMs" map when planning your route. There's also a lesson, by chance quite a timely one, for the designers of both software like NotamPlot and the interfaces to the sort of data it uses.

[Rod1]

Just to restate, the Notam was available on the AIS site. I was planning on flying near Cosford, checked the AIS site, got the Notam and avoided the area. The AIS site in conjunction with your favourite 3rd party s/w is a good all round solution to getting a full picture of what is going on. Yes I know it is a big pain, but it is the best solution available right now.

Rod1

[proplover]

Hireandhire - you weren't the only one, from the ground I saw at least 4 aircraft sail through Cosfords O\H between 15:30 and 18:00. No conflicts from my observations however the last 'fly through' did seem somewhat errrrrrr 'low'.

[Hireandhire]

By way of follow-up, I have now had a play with the latest AIS site, and have to say that it is a vast improvement on the original.

This will now become my primary source again.

proplover - thanks. Not me in the overhead though, I was 7nm away when I called them, and never much closer than 5 when skirting the builtup area to the east !!!

regards
HnH