Thielert in serious trouble ?

[VeriLocation]

Interesting letter from Diamond Canada to it's North American customers then passed to UK customers suggests that Diamond have been rebuffed in their attempts to purchase spares and engines at historical costs. The administrator for Thierlet is not stupid, he knows probably that if Diamond can buy enough spares and engines to see them through to the release of their new engine then they will not need to buy Thierlet. Thus the price for the company is much less as one of it's main customers will then go it alone. There will be plenty of nail biting going on as the two parties play business poker, however Diamond do not have time on their side as cash will dry up , plus the insolvency will run it's course and must be concluded in it's initial stages by July - that's when we will see what will result - not before. Until then I'm keeping my DA40 hours low - hoping I don't need a spare part....

[Life's a Beech]

IO540

"very few turbo engines seem to make TBO"

I am not saying you're wrong, but is this true? It doesn't fit my experience, but we have well-maintained machines.

I have taken 4 such engines to TBO+20% (OK, one was 9 hours short but it could have gone the whole way except it needed a small repair not warranted for 9 hours of use). Currently flying one of the most sensitive turbo-charged engines around (Continental GTSIO-520) 100 hours into extension. In that time have had two rebuilt before TBO, but one was a maintenance error and the other was probably avoidable pilot handling. So taking out the maintenance error that's 80% going well into extension, and the only exception avoidable!

[IO540]

It seems to be a regular pattern.

Perhaps operating practices play a major role? A turbo itself should not affect things (except the failure rate of the turbo itself).

When I fly airways, say FL160, flat out, the engine is going at something like 50% power - nothing really. If I had a TB21 and flew it at 50% power at FL160, it should last just as long; the CHTs etc will be similar. But who is going to do that? You have a turbo - you "will" fly at 75% power The Mooney advert: life is short, fly fast.

[S-Works]

When I fly airways, say FL160

Do you really fly that low? How do you avoid weather and hitting things like the alps?

[Fuji Abound]

You should stand on the ramp and watch the rental guys returning the 40 and 42s, park up and immediately shut down - that really does the turbos a lot of good.

Diamond came up in discussion today.

I was lead to believe they are part of a well funded group. Is this so? A strong capital base will give them a good chance of surviving this set back.

[BartV]

I was lead to believe they are part of a well funded group. Is this so? A strong capital base will give them a good chance of surviving this set back.

No matter how much capital you have behind you, when you mess up, you mess up. No matter how low capital you have, if you have a good project you always find money for it.

Every venture in aviation has capital behind them, the question is, will they keep supporting them when they mess up or will they pull the trigger.

As far as I know, Diamond did NOT made any money in the past, so that's not really something to yell about in business...

[soay]

In a press conference yesterday, the bankruptcy administrator at Thielert accused Diamond of "playing poker here at the expense of its own customers". Details are here.

[IO540]

In terms of the customers we are in a difficult situation – particularly with regard to the end customers. German insolvency law does not permit the assumption of warranties or guarantees free of charge for products and services supplied prior to the declaration of insolvency. At present we would not even be in a position to do in economical terms. For this reason we hope that the airplane manufacturers will step into the breach here. In the European legal realm this represents a valid obligation in any case.

Exactly as I said a while ago [my emphasis]

Anyway, it looks like TAE are happy to sell engines and parts direct to dealers and end customers, but they won't sell to Diamond at the previous OEM price.

[BartV]

IO540, true with European end users, wrong IMHO with sales on a company/trust/outside EU

Most of the Diamonds are sold to flight schools, persons who own a business etc... so you can make the calculation yourselfs, how many real 'end' user full non refund VAT paying customers have they ?

[n5296s]

This is no Pitts Special capable of landing in 100m.

I'd like to see it done. Maybe you're confusing it with a Husky... A really skilled pilot can maybe get it down in 3-400m. After several hundred landings I have made the first exit (about 400m) exactly once. People talk about it kind of like getting a hole in one.

I would hate to have to deadstick the Pitts into a field for real. I know someone who did and survived the experience, although the plane was a writeoff. People talk very seriously about bailing if the engine stops (always an option given that the only reason to fly one is for acro).

n5296s (or maybe n15ta for this discussion)

[Life's a Beech]

bose-x

When I fly airways, say FL160

Do you really fly that low? How do you avoid weather and hitting things like the alps?

That's really quite high! What's wrong with FL100? Weather isn't often a problem above FL70-80. You just have to accept that you'll rarely go to Italy, and if you do you have to stop for fuel at Nice or Cannes unless you have really good range.

[Life's a Beech]

bose-x

When I fly airways, say FL160 Do you really fly that low?

How do you avoid weather and hitting things like the alps?

That's really quite high! What's wrong with FL100? Weather isn't often a problem above FL70-80. You just have to accept that you'll rarely go to Italy, and if you do you have to stop for fuel at Nice or Cannes unless you have really good range.

IO540

Actually we tend to use 60-65% power in the cruise, depending on type. The extra 10-15% gives little extra speed with much higher fuel flow and somewhat more unplanned maintenance. Fuel use can be critical when considering payloads.

[IO540]

true with European end users, wrong IMHO with sales on a company/trust/outside EU

The default position applies to all purchasers for EU transactions/deliveries, but a business buyer can sign away his rights. Whether any/many have depends on what contract they signed.

It would be pretty unusual to have an explicit warranty with the engine mfg direct. Such a contract would be automatically void (to that extent, anyway) if stuck under the nose of any private buyer. I know this is a common try-on in both aviation and on the High Street (Dixons/Comet all do it) but it's not the legal position.

However one can always sue conventionally. Most judges would regard a plane as something that ought to last longer than this. Most owners won't sue however because they want to hang onto any thread of a relationship with their dealer. The situation of a Diamond/Thielert owner suing his dealer is a bit like a Spitfire owner suing his one and only mechanic

Actually we tend to use 60-65% power in the cruise, depending on type. The extra 10-15% gives little extra speed with much higher fuel flow and somewhat more unplanned maintenance. Fuel use can be critical when considering payloads.

Same here, and I agree why.

Re cloud tops, FL100 gets you above most of the time but they are quite often FL150-180. I suppose it depends on one's acceptance of extended IMC enroute...

[Justiciar]

It would be pretty unusual to have an explicit warranty with the engine mfg direct. Such a contract would be automatically void (to that extent, anyway) if stuck under the nose of any private buyer. I know this is a common try-on in both aviation and on the High Street (Dixons/Comet all do it) but it's not the legal position.

Agreed. Any supply to a private customer in the EU would struggle to exclude the rights of the customer against the dealer as the person with whom the customer has the contract. A buyer acting in the course of their business is in a different position, but many EU countries have laws preventing the blanket exclusion of liability of a supplier even towards a business customer unless those exclusions are "reasonable". These rules would be applied by the courts in the EU irrespective of the law governing the contract.

A sale wholy outside the EU is in a different position to the extent that the contract may be with the dealer in a state where it is lawful to exclude liability completely, though again many countries outide the EU have similarly framed rules preventing blanket exclusion of liability.

In each case the dealers, whereever they are, will have their own claims against Diamond if their customers sue them, so in practice Diamond may deal directly with the customer, though that is not necessarily a route to quick resolution of any claims which arise. The buck definitely stops with Diamond as Thielert being in Administration means that they will have little recourse to that company for any warranty claims.

[Fuji Abound]

Of course an agent could simply fold his company if the claims warranted.

[S-Works]

That's really quite high! What's wrong with FL100? Weather isn't often a problem above FL70-80. You just have to accept that you'll rarely go to Italy, and if you do you have to stop for fuel at Nice or Cannes unless you have really good range.

It was a playful dig at IO540, an in joke between friends.

The pressurised v unpressurised debate.....

[IO540]

When Pose-X had his C150, nobody needed more than a C150 to fly airways. Especially as his C150 flew 10kt faster and 5000ft higher than anybody else's, on a 20% lower fuel flow.

When Pose-X had his C172 "rocket", nobody needed more than a C172 to fly airways. Especially as his C172 flew 20kt faster and 8000ft higher than anybody else's, on a 30% lower fuel flow.

Now Pose-X is flying a Malibu, nobody should fly airways unpressurised. Of course this Malibu is a special one; it can carry 500kg of passengers (probably about what he was carrying from Berlin, looking at the pictures I saw) plus full fuel, 1500nm, with IFR reserves.

I just hope he never gets into a real plane, because then I will have to tear up all those bits of paper I have laboriously collected over the last 8 years

[S-Works]

I just hope he never gets into a real plane, because then I will have to tear up all those bits of paper I have laboriously collected over the last 8 years

What all those 'plastic' ratings...... Why can't you get real ones?

I assume a proper plane is a TB20 that goes 100% further than anything else on earth while being fitted with the best autopilot that goes wrong 10 times a flight.......

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.....

[Fuji Abound]

Oh, you must hate it when you have figure trouble with the keyboard IO it is er so easy to inter change some the letters. I got my Ts and Rs muddled once.

[soay]

Dear Moderator, how about setting up a separate forum for Bose, IO and Fuji to bitch at each other in. Perhaps that'll stop them hijacking so many threads!