After the annual inspection
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It makes me wonder why maintenance companies think they should have a captive audience?
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Jesus Christ IO you can be a cheeky bastard at times!!!
My guy does not operate out of a ''shed'. I also don't do any maintenance on my own aircraft. Any work done on my aircraft is done in the engineers hangar by the engineer. I may occasionally take of the cowlings or wheel spats to help in advance of him starting but thats it.
Of course I have a good relationship with him, that is exactly how the relationship should be. I am the customer and he is the supplier. He naturally wants to have a productive relationship with me. This means involving me in all aspects of my maintenance, informing of any issues he my find as he goes along and giving advice. A proper engineer/owner relationship.
I may not have a shiny new TB20 but I can assure you that the records for my aircraft are completely in order and every piece of work ever carried out on the aircraft can be traced and verified. For an 'old' aircraft it has not covered many hours.
He may be small and 'informal' but he does the job in accordance with the regs.
My guy does not operate out of a ''shed'. I also don't do any maintenance on my own aircraft. Any work done on my aircraft is done in the engineers hangar by the engineer. I may occasionally take of the cowlings or wheel spats to help in advance of him starting but thats it.
Of course I have a good relationship with him, that is exactly how the relationship should be. I am the customer and he is the supplier. He naturally wants to have a productive relationship with me. This means involving me in all aspects of my maintenance, informing of any issues he my find as he goes along and giving advice. A proper engineer/owner relationship.
I may not have a shiny new TB20 but I can assure you that the records for my aircraft are completely in order and every piece of work ever carried out on the aircraft can be traced and verified. For an 'old' aircraft it has not covered many hours.
He may be small and 'informal' but he does the job in accordance with the regs.
Hi there
With regards to Permit aircraft, of which I am an inspector, I find that owners come in three kinds (a) the rich guy that will argue the toss on every thing, especially when it comes to money (whilst leaning on the latest Beemer) (b) the rich guy who follows you like a shadow around the aircraft while you try and carry out the inspection (and, at least once, has to ordered away on pain of refusal of permit) and does his level best to spend money.This type of guy will refuse point-blank to change a worn tyre or corroded metal unless you start closing your toolbox...(c)the ordinary guy, of whatever income level, who does what's required in terms of maintenance and servicing, is honest and does what he is told without complaint and pays on the nail.His aircraft is invariably clean, properly prepared for the inspection and his logbooks are up to date and he flies the most hours per year of the three.
Guess which kind I like?
there's good and bad on both sides.
regards
TDD
With regards to Permit aircraft, of which I am an inspector, I find that owners come in three kinds (a) the rich guy that will argue the toss on every thing, especially when it comes to money (whilst leaning on the latest Beemer) (b) the rich guy who follows you like a shadow around the aircraft while you try and carry out the inspection (and, at least once, has to ordered away on pain of refusal of permit) and does his level best to spend money.This type of guy will refuse point-blank to change a worn tyre or corroded metal unless you start closing your toolbox...(c)the ordinary guy, of whatever income level, who does what's required in terms of maintenance and servicing, is honest and does what he is told without complaint and pays on the nail.His aircraft is invariably clean, properly prepared for the inspection and his logbooks are up to date and he flies the most hours per year of the three.
Guess which kind I like?
there's good and bad on both sides.
regards
TDD
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smarthawke
Thanks for posting, even if you did not answer my question
“Okay, something about 'a little knowledge is dangerous' was it?”
You are right; I am just an ordinary Joe who spent 1800 hours building an aircraft. That does not make me an aircraft eng,
but some knowledge is a good thing. Let’s consider a real life example;
An aerobatic pilot was practicing in a Zlin for a competition. Unusually he did not have a shoot, which he usually did. Part way through a maneuver there is a loud bang and one wing starts to fold upwards. Quick as a flash he understands what part of the wing has broken and he rolls the aircraft inverted, the wing folds back into position. Our hero is now sat upside down, with no shoot and a wing which will fold if he rolls upright.
I
will not bother with the rest of the story; it will be on the net some ware. However he did survive, but he got mud on the nav light glass on one wingtip. The pilots name was Neil Williams and if he had not understood how his aircraft was bolted together he would have died. He got an apology, a replacement aircraft and mods were made to add glass tubes filed with Nitrogen to detect any problem with the spars.
“So audience participation: the main reason owners want to 'help' is to keep the costs down - perhaps some want to learn a bit about their aircraft at the same time. I don't have time (and neither do my staff) to train owners on how to maintain their aircraft. “
The old, I am very busy and it is far to complicated for a pilot to understand anyway! Let’s take another example. You do not like DR400’s or AA5’s, and I am not keen on Mr P or C so lets pick on a British classic, the Bulldog.
The Bulldog has a surprising number of access panels. The Panels have far more screws than one would expect. To inspect the aircraft it is necessary to remove the panels. I suggest that even your average pilot could do this job with almost no assistance. Having got the panels off the pilot could get a flash light and a mirror and learn about the condition of his aircraft, the way it is held together and how the controls work. Very easy to see how such knowledge could help him live longer. Or have I insulted you again?
“some aircraft are cheaply maintained at a shocking level”
You like to use the word cheap. I think what you mean is licensed engineers carrying out work that is substandard or incomplete and then signing it off. You seem to imply that this is common. I suggest there are better words than cheap to describe this practice, Illegal, fraudulent, etc etc. Please understand that the average owner thinks that the CAA gives out licenses to people and that these people will only sign off a legitimate maintenance job. This naivety is partly due to the “its complicated and I do not have time to explain” approach. I have never skimped on the cost of maintenance, but the quality I have received has ranged from very very good, to really really incompetent/dangerous.
I asked you before why you felt Insulted by my statement that people should get involved. I understand why you disagree, but I still struggle with the “insulted”
Now I do not wish to imply that your organization is anything other than perfect, I have never hired your services, but people speak highly of you. None of the above is intended as any sort of personal attack.
Rod1
Thanks for posting, even if you did not answer my question
“Okay, something about 'a little knowledge is dangerous' was it?”
You are right; I am just an ordinary Joe who spent 1800 hours building an aircraft. That does not make me an aircraft eng,
but some knowledge is a good thing. Let’s consider a real life example;An aerobatic pilot was practicing in a Zlin for a competition. Unusually he did not have a shoot, which he usually did. Part way through a maneuver there is a loud bang and one wing starts to fold upwards. Quick as a flash he understands what part of the wing has broken and he rolls the aircraft inverted, the wing folds back into position. Our hero is now sat upside down, with no shoot and a wing which will fold if he rolls upright.
Iwill not bother with the rest of the story; it will be on the net some ware. However he did survive, but he got mud on the nav light glass on one wingtip. The pilots name was Neil Williams and if he had not understood how his aircraft was bolted together he would have died. He got an apology, a replacement aircraft and mods were made to add glass tubes filed with Nitrogen to detect any problem with the spars.
“So audience participation: the main reason owners want to 'help' is to keep the costs down - perhaps some want to learn a bit about their aircraft at the same time. I don't have time (and neither do my staff) to train owners on how to maintain their aircraft. “
The old, I am very busy and it is far to complicated for a pilot to understand anyway! Let’s take another example. You do not like DR400’s or AA5’s, and I am not keen on Mr P or C so lets pick on a British classic, the Bulldog.
The Bulldog has a surprising number of access panels. The Panels have far more screws than one would expect. To inspect the aircraft it is necessary to remove the panels. I suggest that even your average pilot could do this job with almost no assistance. Having got the panels off the pilot could get a flash light and a mirror and learn about the condition of his aircraft, the way it is held together and how the controls work. Very easy to see how such knowledge could help him live longer. Or have I insulted you again?
“some aircraft are cheaply maintained at a shocking level”
You like to use the word cheap. I think what you mean is licensed engineers carrying out work that is substandard or incomplete and then signing it off. You seem to imply that this is common. I suggest there are better words than cheap to describe this practice, Illegal, fraudulent, etc etc. Please understand that the average owner thinks that the CAA gives out licenses to people and that these people will only sign off a legitimate maintenance job. This naivety is partly due to the “its complicated and I do not have time to explain” approach. I have never skimped on the cost of maintenance, but the quality I have received has ranged from very very good, to really really incompetent/dangerous.
I asked you before why you felt Insulted by my statement that people should get involved. I understand why you disagree, but I still struggle with the “insulted”
Now I do not wish to imply that your organization is anything other than perfect, I have never hired your services, but people speak highly of you. None of the above is intended as any sort of personal attack.
Rod1
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Threatening to biff someone you have never met reaches new levels of stupidity.
I've been following your posts and comments here for some time, and what I see are overly egotistical, assinine comments, attacks on private pilots, and lording yourself out as some high model of aeronautical standard...you're what, a flight instructor with a little general aviation experience? Is that it? Do try to get over yourself.
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I made no such threat, mr. "lethal assassin." More to the point, when you whined that a fight had been picked with you, I took the time to point out it had not.
I didn't pick a fight with you. Were that the case, when you regained consciousness, there would be no doubt in your mind.
I've been following your posts and comments here for some time, and what I see are overly egotistical, assinine comments, attacks on private pilots, and lording yourself out as some high model of aeronautical standard...you're what, a flight instructor with a little general aviation experience? Is that it? Do try to get over yourself.
Typical yank..... What you going to do now, send in the troops or fly over and knock me unconscious yourself?
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With regards to Permit aircraft, of which I am an inspector, I find that owners come in three kinds (a) the rich guy that will argue the toss on every thing, especially when it comes to money (whilst leaning on the latest Beemer) (b) the rich guy who follows you like a shadow around the aircraft while you try and carry out the inspection (and, at least once, has to ordered away on pain of refusal of permit) and does his level best to spend money.This type of guy will refuse point-blank to change a worn tyre or corroded metal unless you start closing your toolbox...(c)the ordinary guy, of whatever income level, who does what's required in terms of maintenance and servicing, is honest and does what he is told without complaint and pays on the nail.His aircraft is invariably clean, properly prepared for the inspection and his logbooks are up to date and he flies the most hours per year of the three.
However you are mis-classifying people. One of your rich categories is in fact a business/professional type who has got to where he is in life by NOT being a mug, and specifically by operating on the "trust but verify" principle. These types are the hardest people to please because they are very good at their respective fields (quite often engineering or some scientific discipline) and it is virtually impossible to pull wool over their eyes. But if you treat them as professionals and not as idiots, and prove that you are not one of the many crooks in aircraft maintenance, they will trust you, leave you alone, and pay you well.
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Rod1. I'm afraid busy again but I've had a quick look and can't see where I said I was 'insulted' by the audience participation idea. Simply it doesn't work at our establishment. I wasn't talking about you in particular when discussing this subject - not many owners of the certified aircraft we maintain have spent 1800hrs gluing them together. I do find terms like 'grease monkey' insulting though....
When I certify that an inspection has been carried out I have to have trust in my (non-licensed) colleagues that the job has been done correctly. It would take me a long time (ie many days work, ie many Annuals) to gain that level of trust with an aircraft owner that I don't personally know and has minimal experience of the task in hand. To you it may just be a torch in a mirror through an inspection panel but you have to know what you are looking for.
My thoughts on Robins are that they are a superbly efficient aircraft (aerodynamically) but having firewall forward and a few other bits US Imperial and the rest metric is not great. The factory can be difficult to deal with and parts are often more expensive and difficult to get hold of compared to Pipers and Cessnas. But then again we look after a couple of Mooneys... Oh and they are made of wood and fabric and the engine rests on the firewall and is covered in cooling blast hoses so it's impossibly tight working on them. 2CV door handles are pretty though. AA5s are metal but glued together - great idea....!
I've never said I was perfect but at our place we do a damn good job - it may not be the cheapest (and by 'cheapest' I mean as I meant in previous posts 'cheap' as in 'not costing a lot' - but you interpret it otherwise if it pleases you) but the aircraft are maintained to a very high standard. As an owner/builder/pilot I fully apreciate the costs involved in aircraft maintenance and any of our owners/group reps are welcome to call in any time and see what we are doing and we keep everything we replace to show them why.
Next, Bose-x:
Confused again - where did I say that it was "bad that customers on your field choose to have maintenance done else where but good that people come from other fields to you". I actually said a number of aircraft go elsewhere because no-one wants to maintain their aircraft at their home airfield - mainly due to payment difficulties for services rendered. It was just a statement that wherever airfield you go to, not everyone has their aircraft maintained at their home airfield be it because the maintainers don't want to deal with them or the owners feel they can get a better deal elsewhere.
Incidentally, I knew (and still know) your engineer a long, long time before you were around and he is a great bloke and a very knowledgeable engineer to whom I owe a lot.
Oh and bose-x, next time you write things like: "If there has one thing that I have learnt in a few thousand hours of aircraft ownership is that engineers are worse than girls in a locker room when it comes to fighting and bitching!!!!" - best you don't read back your previous and subsequent posts like: "Jesus Christ IO you can be a cheeky bastard at times", "Don't be such an asshole.", "Don't be such a ****.", "The rest of your comments are to stupid to answer." and "you are picking a fight with the wrong person.".............
When I certify that an inspection has been carried out I have to have trust in my (non-licensed) colleagues that the job has been done correctly. It would take me a long time (ie many days work, ie many Annuals) to gain that level of trust with an aircraft owner that I don't personally know and has minimal experience of the task in hand. To you it may just be a torch in a mirror through an inspection panel but you have to know what you are looking for.
My thoughts on Robins are that they are a superbly efficient aircraft (aerodynamically) but having firewall forward and a few other bits US Imperial and the rest metric is not great. The factory can be difficult to deal with and parts are often more expensive and difficult to get hold of compared to Pipers and Cessnas. But then again we look after a couple of Mooneys... Oh and they are made of wood and fabric and the engine rests on the firewall and is covered in cooling blast hoses so it's impossibly tight working on them. 2CV door handles are pretty though. AA5s are metal but glued together - great idea....!
I've never said I was perfect but at our place we do a damn good job - it may not be the cheapest (and by 'cheapest' I mean as I meant in previous posts 'cheap' as in 'not costing a lot' - but you interpret it otherwise if it pleases you) but the aircraft are maintained to a very high standard. As an owner/builder/pilot I fully apreciate the costs involved in aircraft maintenance and any of our owners/group reps are welcome to call in any time and see what we are doing and we keep everything we replace to show them why.
Next, Bose-x:
Confused again - where did I say that it was "bad that customers on your field choose to have maintenance done else where but good that people come from other fields to you". I actually said a number of aircraft go elsewhere because no-one wants to maintain their aircraft at their home airfield - mainly due to payment difficulties for services rendered. It was just a statement that wherever airfield you go to, not everyone has their aircraft maintained at their home airfield be it because the maintainers don't want to deal with them or the owners feel they can get a better deal elsewhere.
Incidentally, I knew (and still know) your engineer a long, long time before you were around and he is a great bloke and a very knowledgeable engineer to whom I owe a lot.
Oh and bose-x, next time you write things like: "If there has one thing that I have learnt in a few thousand hours of aircraft ownership is that engineers are worse than girls in a locker room when it comes to fighting and bitching!!!!" - best you don't read back your previous and subsequent posts like: "Jesus Christ IO you can be a cheeky bastard at times", "Don't be such an asshole.", "Don't be such a ****.", "The rest of your comments are to stupid to answer." and "you are picking a fight with the wrong person.".............
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Oh and bose-x, next time you write things like: "If there has one thing that I have learnt in a few thousand hours of aircraft ownership is that engineers are worse than girls in a locker room when it comes to fighting and bitching!!!!" - best you don't read back your previous and subsequent posts like: "Jesus Christ IO you can be a cheeky bastard at times", "Don't be such an asshole.", "Don't be such a ****.", "The rest of your comments are to stupid to answer." and "you are picking a fight with the wrong person.".............
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You find this one liner “Insulting”. I have to say I have no comprehension why.
I would genuinely like to know why you find my position on this insulting?
I would genuinely like to know why you find my position on this insulting?
My 'grease monkey' comment was intended to be an insult,...
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“I would urge all owners to get as involved as possible in the maintenance of their aircraft, you may live longer.
That opinion is insulting to the vast majority of maintainers and lowers you in the eyes of those that know better.”
To which smarthawke added his agreement (that he found it insulting).
Clear now?
Rod1
That opinion is insulting to the vast majority of maintainers and lowers you in the eyes of those that know better.”
To which smarthawke added his agreement (that he found it insulting).
Clear now?
Rod1
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Ah, Rod1, now I see it.... in stevef's post not mine - I just agreed.
The figures show (and no it isn't 'lies, damn lies and statistics') that the majority of aircraft accidents are caused by some form of pilot error (ie the knob on the end of the throttle....!), not because an engineer has failed in his duty.
To urge owners to in the way you have is hardly likely to make them live longer and to therefore imply that the job would be better done by them than engineers is insulting IMHO.
Happy now? Must go, airplanes to maintain....
The figures show (and no it isn't 'lies, damn lies and statistics') that the majority of aircraft accidents are caused by some form of pilot error (ie the knob on the end of the throttle....!), not because an engineer has failed in his duty.
To urge owners to in the way you have is hardly likely to make them live longer and to therefore imply that the job would be better done by them than engineers is insulting IMHO.
Happy now? Must go, airplanes to maintain....
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To urge owners to in the way you have is hardly likely to make them live longer and to therefore imply that the job would be better done by them than engineers is insulting IMHO.
I was not suggesting that at all! If you read my posts you will see that. I said get involved, not do it.
Rod1
I was not suggesting that at all! If you read my posts you will see that. I said get involved, not do it.
Rod1
[My 'grease monkey' comment was intended to be an insult, but it was only aimed at the specific “gentleman” who screwed up my DR400, not engineers in general.]
Well, you did use the plural and say: 'grease monkeys' in your initial post, Rod 1!
There's good, mediocre and bad in every trade or pastime. Buy me a beer and I'll tell you a few shoddy maintenance yarns as well.
Well, you did use the plural and say: 'grease monkeys' in your initial post, Rod 1!
There's good, mediocre and bad in every trade or pastime. Buy me a beer and I'll tell you a few shoddy maintenance yarns as well.
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stevef, actually the quote was 'other grease monkeys' therefore implying more than one and possibly that all the other 'engineers' were 'grease monkeys' in the eyes of Rod1.....
I'm sure in Rod1's chosen profession they are all perfect people.
Robin400, I'm pretty sure I know what I am doing but that doesn't make a DR400 physically easier to maintain than a PA28.
I'm sure in Rod1's chosen profession they are all perfect people.
Robin400, I'm pretty sure I know what I am doing but that doesn't make a DR400 physically easier to maintain than a PA28.
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What is the difference between types
There are few ADs that make the DR400 more difficult than a PA 28 and it is an easier aircraft to work on
There are few ADs that make the DR400 more difficult than a PA 28 and it is an easier aircraft to work on