Would anyone use Cessna 150 for hour building in uk?
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Would anyone use Cessna 150 for hour building in uk?
I am thinking of importing 2 150's I have found from the US to UK.
They are both full IFR, lovely condition with nice paint and new leather interiors, I am thinking about importing them to the uk, for PPL holders to use as hour building aircraft and basing one in Leicester and one in london area. It seems to me that everyone is offering very expensive packages on uk aircraft! and people are forced to look further afield!
I understand that weather plays a big part, but if there was a cheap uk alternative would anyone be interested? I am looking at keeping the costs down to make it affordable, with all insurances etc included.
let me know ideas
They are both full IFR, lovely condition with nice paint and new leather interiors, I am thinking about importing them to the uk, for PPL holders to use as hour building aircraft and basing one in Leicester and one in london area. It seems to me that everyone is offering very expensive packages on uk aircraft! and people are forced to look further afield!
I understand that weather plays a big part, but if there was a cheap uk alternative would anyone be interested? I am looking at keeping the costs down to make it affordable, with all insurances etc included.
let me know ideas
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Have you compared the actual running costs of a 150/152 vs. a modern Rotax-powered microlight/VLA, or vs. a diesel-powered aircraft such as the DA-40 TDI or Robin Ecoflyer?
Particularly in Europe, fuel prices are a very large percentage of your operating costs so if you can get significant savings on those, by using a frugal engine, or one that can run on mogas or diesel/Jet-A, you may actually be able to offset the higher depreciation of the inevitably newer aircraft.
My club charges the exact same amount per hour for a VFR C152 as a VFR Robin Ecoflyer. Obviously the 152 is at least 20 years old (after all, production stopped in 1985 or so) and the Robins are brand new from the factory. Guess which ones are fully booked with lessons and which are not?
(Edited to say that the club tries to keep cross-subsidies between aircraft types to the minimum, and tries to keep prices in general as low as possible. So the rental price is actually quite a good reflection of the operating costs, plus a fixed amount per hour to pay for non-aircraft-specific club operations.)
Particularly in Europe, fuel prices are a very large percentage of your operating costs so if you can get significant savings on those, by using a frugal engine, or one that can run on mogas or diesel/Jet-A, you may actually be able to offset the higher depreciation of the inevitably newer aircraft.
My club charges the exact same amount per hour for a VFR C152 as a VFR Robin Ecoflyer. Obviously the 152 is at least 20 years old (after all, production stopped in 1985 or so) and the Robins are brand new from the factory. Guess which ones are fully booked with lessons and which are not?
(Edited to say that the club tries to keep cross-subsidies between aircraft types to the minimum, and tries to keep prices in general as low as possible. So the rental price is actually quite a good reflection of the operating costs, plus a fixed amount per hour to pay for non-aircraft-specific club operations.)
Last edited by BackPacker; 18th Feb 2008 at 20:45.
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Valid point but for the cost of the 150's I can buy them for a low amount outright and import two at a time in a container, making big savings. The cost of a 150 is only 5 US gallons per hour and most companies are charging them out at £100-118 per hour which is so over the top!!!!
I am think of a huge saving on this price, I understand people like new more modern aeroplanes, but for hour building packages, for people wanting to get experience or time towards commercial etc it maybe a good cheap option, as well as fun for the normal ppl holder that doesnt want huge monthly costs.
I am going for the older planes as they are making an initial saving upfront and they have been basically rebuilt to the highest of standards with nice modern avionic, interiors. I want to see cheaper prices like in the US, we all want to fly but cannot always do so because of the cost.
I am think of a huge saving on this price, I understand people like new more modern aeroplanes, but for hour building packages, for people wanting to get experience or time towards commercial etc it maybe a good cheap option, as well as fun for the normal ppl holder that doesnt want huge monthly costs.
I am going for the older planes as they are making an initial saving upfront and they have been basically rebuilt to the highest of standards with nice modern avionic, interiors. I want to see cheaper prices like in the US, we all want to fly but cannot always do so because of the cost.
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Hours building
As Airborne_artist say I have two C152 aircraft avalable for lease to hours builders.
The problem that you will have is balancing the cost of the airframe with the operating costs, the newer aircraft do burn less fuel but the inital cost of the aircraft is about 300% of the cost of a C152.
The newer "glass" aircraft are much less robust than the Cessna, this equates to higher maintenance bills as well as more downtime.
As a Robin owner and enthusiast I would not lease one of these, Robins are a very good private aircraft but the product suport is not up to commercial operation, twenty-three years of Robin ownership have taught me this much.
As to buying C150's from the USA it is not a bad idea BUT the airframe is not as "sorted" as the C152 and the engine TBO is 400 hours shorter. I would also guess that the Full IFR avionic fit is not FM immune and only a mode A/C transponder. If the price of the aircraft is low enough you might have a business but expect to spend as much as the inital cost of each aircraft on getting it up to a standard that will make money.
I won't tell you the D.O.C. of my C152's but the hourly rate to the hoursbuilder can be as low as £63/hour including VAT,fuel, parking and landing fees. Yes £63/hour is realistic if flown in the way you would fly an aircraft if you rented in the USA.
As to USA cost vs UK cost per hour it is about the same once you take into account all the "extras" you will need to go to the USA.
www.bigredkite.com
(Website under construction.)
The problem that you will have is balancing the cost of the airframe with the operating costs, the newer aircraft do burn less fuel but the inital cost of the aircraft is about 300% of the cost of a C152.
The newer "glass" aircraft are much less robust than the Cessna, this equates to higher maintenance bills as well as more downtime.
As a Robin owner and enthusiast I would not lease one of these, Robins are a very good private aircraft but the product suport is not up to commercial operation, twenty-three years of Robin ownership have taught me this much.
As to buying C150's from the USA it is not a bad idea BUT the airframe is not as "sorted" as the C152 and the engine TBO is 400 hours shorter. I would also guess that the Full IFR avionic fit is not FM immune and only a mode A/C transponder. If the price of the aircraft is low enough you might have a business but expect to spend as much as the inital cost of each aircraft on getting it up to a standard that will make money.
I won't tell you the D.O.C. of my C152's but the hourly rate to the hoursbuilder can be as low as £63/hour including VAT,fuel, parking and landing fees. Yes £63/hour is realistic if flown in the way you would fly an aircraft if you rented in the USA.
As to USA cost vs UK cost per hour it is about the same once you take into account all the "extras" you will need to go to the USA.
www.bigredkite.com
(Website under construction.)
Last edited by A and C; 19th Feb 2008 at 08:13.
Just hijacking the thread slightly.
Does anybody know who/where/how much in the UK there are rentable French Built C150L and C150M aircraft?
Just to emphasise, only those two models, and they must be French built aircraft - not interested in anything else.
G
Does anybody know who/where/how much in the UK there are rentable French Built C150L and C150M aircraft?
Just to emphasise, only those two models, and they must be French built aircraft - not interested in anything else.
G
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Genghis,
According to G-INFO there are 40 F150Ls and 23 F150Ms on the UK register. Sheffield Aero club have a 150M, as do the Almat flying club, and there are probalby several others. CATS at Cranfield have a F150L.
Brooklands
According to G-INFO there are 40 F150Ls and 23 F150Ms on the UK register. Sheffield Aero club have a 150M, as do the Almat flying club, and there are probalby several others. CATS at Cranfield have a F150L.
Brooklands
CATS technically have both an F150L and F150M, but are being awkward about renting them (I want to do some technical evaluation work as part of my day job) but thanks very much for the heads up about Sheffield. Any other leads appreciated.
G
G
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Would G-BDFZ and/or G-BBXB be any use?
Both based EGNU; 'FZ is a club a/c and 'XB used to be, probably still available if you ask the owner nicely to put you on the insurance.
PM me if you wish.
Both based EGNU; 'FZ is a club a/c and 'XB used to be, probably still available if you ask the owner nicely to put you on the insurance.
PM me if you wish.
Professional Student
My 0.02p...
As someone who's just done his hourbuilding, and did have the option of purchasing block C150 time, I went the slightly more expensive route (roughly £60/hr for the 150, versus about £90/hr with a block purchase program) and did a mix of Supercub/Arrow/Archer hours.
Why? I thought the extra cost was worth the extra experience in those first two types (tailwheel & map & compass nav plus complex time) versus doing all my hours in an aircraft that wasn't much dissimilar to the aircraft I did my PPL in (C152).
That's not to say C150 aren't a good route, I just thought it would be worth getting tailwheel training plus an IMCR, then taking my flying to a more demanding level than what I'd done with my PPL.
Why? I thought the extra cost was worth the extra experience in those first two types (tailwheel & map & compass nav plus complex time) versus doing all my hours in an aircraft that wasn't much dissimilar to the aircraft I did my PPL in (C152).
That's not to say C150 aren't a good route, I just thought it would be worth getting tailwheel training plus an IMCR, then taking my flying to a more demanding level than what I'd done with my PPL.
