Where to get a decent flying suit?
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ref mr eharding..
I sill dont see how a flying suit is going to protect anyone from the g force / impact related injuries that are the cause of death in most accidents related to GA. Nomax leather or what ever its made from.
And as has been amplified here, whereas a racing driver may have marshalls on hand to get the foam on him in seconds , that isnt going to be available at the site of the majority of GA crash sites.
So I ask again , what real benefit do they provide?
I sill dont see how a flying suit is going to protect anyone from the g force / impact related injuries that are the cause of death in most accidents related to GA. Nomax leather or what ever its made from.
And as has been amplified here, whereas a racing driver may have marshalls on hand to get the foam on him in seconds , that isnt going to be available at the site of the majority of GA crash sites.
So I ask again , what real benefit do they provide?
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Well, in the event of a full-on sub-second 200kt 0 to 0kt deceleration event the benefit of a custom-made flying suit and helmet will be that they can match up your head with the rest of you, since your name will probably be inscribed or embossed on both items, which may well be a considerable distance apart after the event.
In a full-on fuel fire, every part of a second that whatever you are wearing may either prolong the agony, or give you that wafer-thin margin to escape. Your choice.
I've never been in either situation, thankfully. On a daily, practical basis, flying aerobatic types wearing grow-bag is a) a lot less restrictive than a pair of jeans and b) gives you the opportunity to secure all and any loose article about your person (apart from the nut than connects the stick to the the seat).
We've done this to death regarding parachutes and helmets on a different thread. Search for 'tigerbatics' for a forthright discussion of the subject.
In a full-on fuel fire, every part of a second that whatever you are wearing may either prolong the agony, or give you that wafer-thin margin to escape. Your choice.
I've never been in either situation, thankfully. On a daily, practical basis, flying aerobatic types wearing grow-bag is a) a lot less restrictive than a pair of jeans and b) gives you the opportunity to secure all and any loose article about your person (apart from the nut than connects the stick to the the seat).
We've done this to death regarding parachutes and helmets on a different thread. Search for 'tigerbatics' for a forthright discussion of the subject.
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The need for flying suits
Hi radicalrabit,
Whether you bother with specialised flying clothing depends on the kind of flying you intend to do and the types you intend to do it in. Clearly, if you are going to fly gliders then Nomex is an irrelevance.
However, if you are going to fly an early Piper Cub, in which the fuel tank looks like a tin can suspended an inch or so above the pilot's shins, then some kind of limited fire protection provision makes sense. A lot of aerobatic types too have large fuel tanks immediately behind the engine; (Slingsby Firefly being a case in point). When I bought my kit, I was planning to include flying vintage types in my flying. In fact, I'm going to fly a Cub on Monday.
Preventing impact injuries is essentially the task of the aircraft manufacturer. A task they have so far utterly shirked. The average modern aeroplane is at least thirty years behind the average cheap motor car. Not only do they have no rigid safety cages for the occupants and no airbags, some even have obvious designed in hazards. The Sky Arrow, for example, has a sharp flange along the entire bottom edge of the instrument panel specially designed to cut into the pilot's shins in the event of a forward crash. In safety terms, this is a design howler, yet if you read the magazine reviews of these aircraft, this hazard is not even mentioned because pilots are so used to the present disgraceful design that they don't even expect safe cockpits.
Broomstick.
Whether you bother with specialised flying clothing depends on the kind of flying you intend to do and the types you intend to do it in. Clearly, if you are going to fly gliders then Nomex is an irrelevance.
However, if you are going to fly an early Piper Cub, in which the fuel tank looks like a tin can suspended an inch or so above the pilot's shins, then some kind of limited fire protection provision makes sense. A lot of aerobatic types too have large fuel tanks immediately behind the engine; (Slingsby Firefly being a case in point). When I bought my kit, I was planning to include flying vintage types in my flying. In fact, I'm going to fly a Cub on Monday.
Preventing impact injuries is essentially the task of the aircraft manufacturer. A task they have so far utterly shirked. The average modern aeroplane is at least thirty years behind the average cheap motor car. Not only do they have no rigid safety cages for the occupants and no airbags, some even have obvious designed in hazards. The Sky Arrow, for example, has a sharp flange along the entire bottom edge of the instrument panel specially designed to cut into the pilot's shins in the event of a forward crash. In safety terms, this is a design howler, yet if you read the magazine reviews of these aircraft, this hazard is not even mentioned because pilots are so used to the present disgraceful design that they don't even expect safe cockpits.
Broomstick.
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For aerobatic flight I thnk a flying suit is essential. It allows keys, money, whatever to be zipped into pockets and reduces the danger of loose objects finding their way into the aeroplane. It assists in strap tightening because it presents a uniform surface area and is, as Ed says, much less restrictive than jeans etc.
For the fashion aware pilot it also sets off the bone dome and 'chute.
It is also a very good idea for the non-aerobatic pilot who flies a machine that others may aero.
Whether it makes sense just puttering about aimlessly or wandering about from from one airfield to another in a S & L machine is a question which is as hard to answer as it is to understand why anyone bothers.
For the fashion aware pilot it also sets off the bone dome and 'chute.
It is also a very good idea for the non-aerobatic pilot who flies a machine that others may aero.
Whether it makes sense just puttering about aimlessly or wandering about from from one airfield to another in a S & L machine is a question which is as hard to answer as it is to understand why anyone bothers.
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understood
Thanks tigerb...and others ;While the RAF pilots used to have the full kit on for flying Bulldogs, I dont think pottering about in a Cherokee needs a bright red flameproof overall, top gun style bone dome with visor grey leather gloves etc. I will just find somewhere secure for the chinagraphs.
That makes sence to me.
That makes sence to me.
Last edited by radicalrabit; 9th Feb 2008 at 11:55.
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[QUOTE]I'd read a post (another forum) made by a chap who has done post crash investigations for the US airforce. He made mention of the dangers of leather jackets and that they were to be avioded. He also made the point about pilots who had their fingers burnt off, not being able to unzip the jacket, and cooking to death.
I guess as you point out, the other option is to have the nomex jacket melt into your skin.
You mention nomex lined leather jackets. Your comment doesnt make it clear, but do they offer insulation from the cooking effects of the leather jacket ?
[/QUO
A leather jacket will not cook you. Leather transfers heat and retains heat better than cloth layers...which is why fire gear is typically polyaramid fiber. However, what a leather jacket does do is resist burning. If you're in a fire long enough for the leather to get that hot, then you're already cooked. As I pointed out before, your airway is the most crucial part of your body, more than your fingers, your eyes, or anything covered by that leather jacket. If you're cooking under your leather jacket, your airway is probably already toast.
If your leather jacket is lined with nylon or rayon, then the heat of the shell isn't particularly important.
You're not concerned with staying in the fire. If you're staying in the fire, it doesn't matter much if you have a nomex suit on or not. The nomex isn't there to protect you. It's there to keep from melting over you or igniting. And given exposure to prolonged flame, it's going to do both anyway. Everything burns. Nomex just doesn't sustain a flame after the source of the flame is removed.
What a nomex suit will do for you is give you some measure of protection against a flash fire. Depending on the nature of a flshover, the fire can range from a low temperature that reaches you, to a fire that will vaporize the clothing on your body and kill you right away, two thousand degrees or more. If the fire gets really hot, then you're not going to survive.
I've been inside structures when they're burning, wearing thick layers of turnout gear made of diffrent polyaramid materials, and been burned. One way of determining if rollover is occuring above you (fire you can't see, above you) is to turn your head aside and see if you can feel your ear burn; it's covered in several layers of polyaramid, but there's no doubt it's hot.
I mention that because your flight suit won't be neary as thick or nearly as protective. It gives you momentary protection agaist contact burns or thermal burns...but that protection is measured in periods of time less than a second. Beyond that, if there's fire and you're exposed, you're going to experience burns ranging all the way up to full thickness burns (third degree). The only thing your nomex is doing for you at that point it simply not actually catching fire. If the heat is enough to burn you, then that's little consolation.
More than wearing nomex, you can help yourselff with your choice of every day clothing; pick cotton rather than poly materials; things that aren't nearly as flammable and things that don't melt.
Older fire retardant fabrics were treated with chemicals, and the fire resistant properties decreased with each washing. Modern fabrics are fire retrdant all by themselves. In fact, they need to be kept clean to offer the most protection.
Leather jackets can be purchased from various vendors that have the lining as nomex or other material, as well as treated leather. An example may be found at Perrone leather: http://perroneapparel.com/nafi/
I guess as you point out, the other option is to have the nomex jacket melt into your skin.
You mention nomex lined leather jackets. Your comment doesnt make it clear, but do they offer insulation from the cooking effects of the leather jacket ?
[/QUO
A leather jacket will not cook you. Leather transfers heat and retains heat better than cloth layers...which is why fire gear is typically polyaramid fiber. However, what a leather jacket does do is resist burning. If you're in a fire long enough for the leather to get that hot, then you're already cooked. As I pointed out before, your airway is the most crucial part of your body, more than your fingers, your eyes, or anything covered by that leather jacket. If you're cooking under your leather jacket, your airway is probably already toast.
If your leather jacket is lined with nylon or rayon, then the heat of the shell isn't particularly important.
You're not concerned with staying in the fire. If you're staying in the fire, it doesn't matter much if you have a nomex suit on or not. The nomex isn't there to protect you. It's there to keep from melting over you or igniting. And given exposure to prolonged flame, it's going to do both anyway. Everything burns. Nomex just doesn't sustain a flame after the source of the flame is removed.
What a nomex suit will do for you is give you some measure of protection against a flash fire. Depending on the nature of a flshover, the fire can range from a low temperature that reaches you, to a fire that will vaporize the clothing on your body and kill you right away, two thousand degrees or more. If the fire gets really hot, then you're not going to survive.
I've been inside structures when they're burning, wearing thick layers of turnout gear made of diffrent polyaramid materials, and been burned. One way of determining if rollover is occuring above you (fire you can't see, above you) is to turn your head aside and see if you can feel your ear burn; it's covered in several layers of polyaramid, but there's no doubt it's hot.
I mention that because your flight suit won't be neary as thick or nearly as protective. It gives you momentary protection agaist contact burns or thermal burns...but that protection is measured in periods of time less than a second. Beyond that, if there's fire and you're exposed, you're going to experience burns ranging all the way up to full thickness burns (third degree). The only thing your nomex is doing for you at that point it simply not actually catching fire. If the heat is enough to burn you, then that's little consolation.
More than wearing nomex, you can help yourselff with your choice of every day clothing; pick cotton rather than poly materials; things that aren't nearly as flammable and things that don't melt.
Older fire retardant fabrics were treated with chemicals, and the fire resistant properties decreased with each washing. Modern fabrics are fire retrdant all by themselves. In fact, they need to be kept clean to offer the most protection.
Leather jackets can be purchased from various vendors that have the lining as nomex or other material, as well as treated leather. An example may be found at Perrone leather: http://perroneapparel.com/nafi/
Thanks for that Guppy. I had recently decided to look into some more safety gear for flying. When my research came up with the possible problems of leather jackets, I was wondering what would replace my leather jacket.
I had looked at some of the nomex clothing and decided they were unaceptable for my use. Around the farm I need something to wear that is warm in winter, can handle the knocks and bumps of daily work, and yet be wearable in the aircraft. For example, I can be working on a farm machine and then jump into the plane to go get a part - I didnt think the nomex garmets would stand up to it.
I had looked at some of the nomex clothing and decided they were unaceptable for my use. Around the farm I need something to wear that is warm in winter, can handle the knocks and bumps of daily work, and yet be wearable in the aircraft. For example, I can be working on a farm machine and then jump into the plane to go get a part - I didnt think the nomex garmets would stand up to it.
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If you are concerned about the risk of fire as opposed to just cold, then consider carefully what you wear underneath your flying suit or other outer layers.
All military aircrew wear long johns (cotton, not man made fibre) and a cotton long sleeved under shirt. Many advocate a cotton T shirt or vest under that.
The Chinook crewman killed in a fireball in Hannover (or rather he died 3 weeks later) vacated the aircraft having slid the full length of the airframe wearing only his underpants and flying boots. He only had a T shirt under his flying suit which was a fatal error of judgement. The flying suit itself did not survive the inferno and he sustained 85% burns. Weston of Falklands fame had about 65%. It is widely believed that had he gone for the cotton layers principle he would have survived.
Of cause all of this is balanced by probability. Nimrod crews far out over the Atlantic do not wear immersion suits because it is improbable that they will ditch without warning, they having 4 engines. Is there a real risk of fire or do you just want to strut around like Maverick. For those wishing to fly cold aeroplanes at height, remember that cold weather flying suit trousers may not look sexy but are very effective at offering fire protection whilst keeping you warm. A wooly jumper will set the 2 piece fashion statement off a treat.
The recent Beech Baron crash off the coast of France has highlighted a need to consider survival options. As has been said already, flying suits that have been washed and ironed lose their effectiveness, however few aircrew change their suits rather then launder them.
In summary layers are good. Cotton and wool is good. Man made fibres are effective against cold but melt quicker than a chocolate tea pot, and are therefore bad.
All military aircrew wear long johns (cotton, not man made fibre) and a cotton long sleeved under shirt. Many advocate a cotton T shirt or vest under that.
The Chinook crewman killed in a fireball in Hannover (or rather he died 3 weeks later) vacated the aircraft having slid the full length of the airframe wearing only his underpants and flying boots. He only had a T shirt under his flying suit which was a fatal error of judgement. The flying suit itself did not survive the inferno and he sustained 85% burns. Weston of Falklands fame had about 65%. It is widely believed that had he gone for the cotton layers principle he would have survived.
Of cause all of this is balanced by probability. Nimrod crews far out over the Atlantic do not wear immersion suits because it is improbable that they will ditch without warning, they having 4 engines. Is there a real risk of fire or do you just want to strut around like Maverick. For those wishing to fly cold aeroplanes at height, remember that cold weather flying suit trousers may not look sexy but are very effective at offering fire protection whilst keeping you warm. A wooly jumper will set the 2 piece fashion statement off a treat.
The recent Beech Baron crash off the coast of France has highlighted a need to consider survival options. As has been said already, flying suits that have been washed and ironed lose their effectiveness, however few aircrew change their suits rather then launder them.
In summary layers are good. Cotton and wool is good. Man made fibres are effective against cold but melt quicker than a chocolate tea pot, and are therefore bad.
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Fabrics
Hi Flying Binghi,
You can get jackets and pants made from Nomex fleece from several sources, Jays being only one of them. These should be splendid for either flying or farming.
Hi Everybody.
I have seen several mentions in this thread saying in effect that untreated cotton is a good thing to wear, especially as underwear. Where fire is the concern, I don't agree. Cotton, unless treated with chemicals, will burn like a torch. If you must wear natural fibres, wear wool or silk. These, being of animal origin, will shrivel quickly if burned and will not maintain a flame. You can get these from the sort of outdoor shops that cater for mountaineers, skiers and cavers; (e.g. Blacks, Snow & Rock, Milletts, YHA Shop, etc).
In the early 19th Century the Rev. Patrick Bronte, (father of the three Bronte sisters who all became famous authors,) insisted that his wife and daughters wore only silk or woolen clothing, even though on his clergyman's stipend he could barely afford the cost. This was because in his capacity as a minister he had officiated at the funerals of so many women and girls whose dresses had caught fire from the candles and open fires that were in general use at the time. I think he had the right idea.
Broomstick.
You can get jackets and pants made from Nomex fleece from several sources, Jays being only one of them. These should be splendid for either flying or farming.
Hi Everybody.
I have seen several mentions in this thread saying in effect that untreated cotton is a good thing to wear, especially as underwear. Where fire is the concern, I don't agree. Cotton, unless treated with chemicals, will burn like a torch. If you must wear natural fibres, wear wool or silk. These, being of animal origin, will shrivel quickly if burned and will not maintain a flame. You can get these from the sort of outdoor shops that cater for mountaineers, skiers and cavers; (e.g. Blacks, Snow & Rock, Milletts, YHA Shop, etc).
In the early 19th Century the Rev. Patrick Bronte, (father of the three Bronte sisters who all became famous authors,) insisted that his wife and daughters wore only silk or woolen clothing, even though on his clergyman's stipend he could barely afford the cost. This was because in his capacity as a minister he had officiated at the funerals of so many women and girls whose dresses had caught fire from the candles and open fires that were in general use at the time. I think he had the right idea.
Broomstick.
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You could try
Ozee Online Shop - All Weather Protection
They do flight suits that are used by paragliders etc, so should keep you cozy.
Hope you get/got sorted - just came across the thread today.
Ozee Online Shop - All Weather Protection
They do flight suits that are used by paragliders etc, so should keep you cozy.
Hope you get/got sorted - just came across the thread today.
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Mine is a good condition surplus flight suit from the local forces surplus store.
It is great, warm, has lots of pockets and knee-boards oand, with the gloves I always use may delay the effect of fire.
In any event it keeps all my key items together. I don't fly a PA28 or Cessna, but wouldn't be ashamed of wearing itin those types.
What you have to think of is not how it looks (who'd wear a Mr Blobby suit else) but what it does....
A flight suit won't help in a collision - nothing much would.
It is great, warm, has lots of pockets and knee-boards oand, with the gloves I always use may delay the effect of fire.
In any event it keeps all my key items together. I don't fly a PA28 or Cessna, but wouldn't be ashamed of wearing itin those types.
What you have to think of is not how it looks (who'd wear a Mr Blobby suit else) but what it does....
A flight suit won't help in a collision - nothing much would.
