Cessna, Liberty XL2 or Piper Warrior PA28
Join Date: Apr 2003
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The new trainers are a much better match to the new aircraft. The GA fleet is being updated quite fast with new glass ships and VLA’s replacing the spam can fleet. The Strip I fly from is made up almost entirely of modern PFA kit, and vintage (pre 1950) kit. There are only two “traditional” aircraft out of 20.
If you want to attract new pilots you need to get them out of their BMWs into a modern machine, not a smelly, tatty, 40 year old pile of old junk.
Rod1
If you want to attract new pilots you need to get them out of their BMWs into a modern machine, not a smelly, tatty, 40 year old pile of old junk.
Rod1
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If you want to attract new pilots you need to get them out of their BMWs into a modern machine, not a smelly, tatty, 40 year old pile of old junk.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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I believe everyone here has a valid point of some sort with respect to an aircraft being better than the other in this or that fashion. True, if you plan on flying Tiger Moths after PPL then a Diamond TDI is probably not very good, whereas a Cub would do nicely. And, if you plan to drive busses further down the line, Cub flying isn't a better start than a Diamond DA40.
But, the question at hand was PA28 vs C152 vs Liberty. These are all very similar aircraft to be quite frank. They all have a conventional lay out, conventional engine (except the fadec), tricycle gear, steam gauges of which you need only 3 anyway etc.
My take on this is the learning environment. I haven't actually taught anyone in the Liberty, only tried it out, but compared to the types I have taught in, C172, PA28 and DA40 it exhibits a certain variation from standard behaviour that I wouldn't call beneficial to the learning curve. It's not a bad aircraft by any means, but as a trainer I don't see it as a better aircraft in any respect.
Ok, it's more economical to operate perhaps, but an expensive classroom isn't necessarily a worse classroom than a cheap one.
I used to be a firm believer in "new is better" and I would still argue that the DA40 is better than the PA28 - in some respects - but after teaching in them I really can't say so in general. Yes, the PA28 is a truck compared to the Liberty or even DA40, but has honest handling qualities that actually make it a good teaching environment, as much as I hate to say it. Even the C172 has it's benefits.
Between the three options I would probably still consider the PA28 the preferred choice, except from an economical and environmental stand point.
But, what do I know, I'm hardly the center of the universe. Why not try them all and see which you like the most? I'll get back to my Diamond with the "terrible diesel that never works" now....
But, the question at hand was PA28 vs C152 vs Liberty. These are all very similar aircraft to be quite frank. They all have a conventional lay out, conventional engine (except the fadec), tricycle gear, steam gauges of which you need only 3 anyway etc.
My take on this is the learning environment. I haven't actually taught anyone in the Liberty, only tried it out, but compared to the types I have taught in, C172, PA28 and DA40 it exhibits a certain variation from standard behaviour that I wouldn't call beneficial to the learning curve. It's not a bad aircraft by any means, but as a trainer I don't see it as a better aircraft in any respect.
Ok, it's more economical to operate perhaps, but an expensive classroom isn't necessarily a worse classroom than a cheap one.
I used to be a firm believer in "new is better" and I would still argue that the DA40 is better than the PA28 - in some respects - but after teaching in them I really can't say so in general. Yes, the PA28 is a truck compared to the Liberty or even DA40, but has honest handling qualities that actually make it a good teaching environment, as much as I hate to say it. Even the C172 has it's benefits.
Between the three options I would probably still consider the PA28 the preferred choice, except from an economical and environmental stand point.
But, what do I know, I'm hardly the center of the universe. Why not try them all and see which you like the most? I'll get back to my Diamond with the "terrible diesel that never works" now....
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The new trainers are a much better match to the new aircraft. The GA fleet is being updated quite fast with new glass ships and VLA’s replacing the spam can fleet. The Strip I fly from is made up almost entirely of modern PFA kit, and vintage (pre 1950) kit. There are only two “traditional” aircraft out of 20.
If you want to attract new pilots you need to get them out of their BMWs into a modern machine, not a smelly, tatty, 40 year old pile of old junk.
If you want to attract new pilots you need to get them out of their BMWs into a modern machine, not a smelly, tatty, 40 year old pile of old junk.
Seriously, I may have missed out on something here so I'd appreciate any suggestions of other trainers.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Lurking123: not trying to be controversial. I'll dig out the full story.
I saw the photos of him hobbling round on crutches in a cast at the shared house all the students were living in.
right back at you
edited to add:
Echo Mike: regardless of how many steam gauges remain alive, when you are an unqualified student and the screens go black on finals, you panic. Correction, I would panic; perhaps you wouldn't.
That you did not even consider that as a possibility in the biggest post on this topic is pretty worrying considering you an instructor.
For example what about the poor UK student that was asked to go round on his solo circuit, stalled the plane and was killed? I imagine your response would be: how hard can it be to add power and remain airborne? Inexperienced (and lots of experienced) pilots panic when presented with a situation they haven't mentally prepared for. End of.
I saw the photos of him hobbling round on crutches in a cast at the shared house all the students were living in.
right back at you edited to add:
Echo Mike: regardless of how many steam gauges remain alive, when you are an unqualified student and the screens go black on finals, you panic. Correction, I would panic; perhaps you wouldn't.
That you did not even consider that as a possibility in the biggest post on this topic is pretty worrying considering you an instructor.
For example what about the poor UK student that was asked to go round on his solo circuit, stalled the plane and was killed? I imagine your response would be: how hard can it be to add power and remain airborne? Inexperienced (and lots of experienced) pilots panic when presented with a situation they haven't mentally prepared for. End of.
Last edited by skyfiend; 11th Jan 2008 at 15:29.
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Train on a 150 or a 152, you will become a better pilot, they are much more unstable and much more difficult to land than a PA28, but it will keep you alive while you mess up, that's why they call them 'good trainers'...
Also, find an instructor who isn't too scared to go spin with you in the 150/152, you won't regret!!
I have around 70 hours in the 152 and i recently moved to PA28, i'm so happy i did not learned to fly in the PA28...
I haven't flew the XL2 but i read about many disapointing points about it: bad taxi, takeoff and landing rolls, problems with the directional control, it misses dampers, its only an electrical trim, so you will miss to learn the 'art of trimming' etc...maybe it's good for the Chinese folks but not for Europeans...
Also, find an instructor who isn't too scared to go spin with you in the 150/152, you won't regret!!
I have around 70 hours in the 152 and i recently moved to PA28, i'm so happy i did not learned to fly in the PA28...
I haven't flew the XL2 but i read about many disapointing points about it: bad taxi, takeoff and landing rolls, problems with the directional control, it misses dampers, its only an electrical trim, so you will miss to learn the 'art of trimming' etc...maybe it's good for the Chinese folks but not for Europeans...
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skyfiend, I'm not disputing that someone may have had an accident in an XL2. However, the story as you recount it has not evidence to back it up. Go here and look up all accidents (in USA that is) involving XL2s. Not one was at night but every single one appears to be a result of bad landing/inappropriate go-around.
ster,... and the C150/152 is a viceless little baby? I just can't believe people who are so set in their ways. Answer me this, would a C152 meet FAR23/JAR23 initial certification standards if it were a new design today?
ster,... and the C150/152 is a viceless little baby? I just can't believe people who are so set in their ways. Answer me this, would a C152 meet FAR23/JAR23 initial certification standards if it were a new design today?
Last edited by Lurking123; 11th Jan 2008 at 16:42.
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It is clear from the NTSB website that OBA have had two Liberty accidents, the one last year is well know and the pilot had a lot more than a broken leg. The other one was in 2006 and involved similar circumstances, perhaps a corruption of several different stories/incidents?
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ster,... and the C150/152 is a viceless little baby? I just can't believe people who are so set in their ways. Answer me this, would a C152 meet FAR23/JAR23 initial certification standards if it were a new design today?
