Health & Safety High VIZ jkts
Join Date: Apr 2003
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H&S stuff is generally there for good reason.
Safety is a culture, and it should be an individual decision making process as to whether or not to carry out an operation based on the info at hand, not whether a book in an office says its OK or not. The problem is when people are not smart enough to be able to make decisions - but you cannot legislate against stupidity!!
Anyone who has worked in the oil industry around the world for the last 10 years as I have knows the difference between good safe practices/a good safety culture at work and arse covering....believe me!!
Regards, SD..
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To the chaps saying they have attended rampside injuries I have some simple questions -was the unfortunate person hit by an aeroplane, or a vehicle? Was it at a ................ major airport? Was it a bright sunny day or miserable/dark?
It is impossible to quantify, as someone said earlier, the number of injuries saved by people wearing hi-viz. Likewise I've seen people lying in a pool of their own blood wearing hi-viz.
Sometimes, and contrary to A and C's experience, the injured party is the innocent bystander. Most often, they are at the end of a chain of events where there has been a systematic failure to observe safe working practices. You don't catch all of these by wearing hi-viz, but objecting to do so sometimes exposes a culture opposed to safety - the 'rebel without a cause' syndrome.
As I've just said above, I don't see the need for hi-viz at a small grass strip but it's really not that big a deal, y'know to just wear one to and fro the a/c when the aerodrome ask you to.
One point I WILL make, though, is pilots who forget to take them off once inside the a/c. I seem to recall a recent AAIB report where someone claimed to have been distracted by sunlight shining off the hi-viz of another occupant of the a/c. Also, they tend to be uncomfortable in warm weather; I know, I used to have to drive round all day wearing one!
TheOddOne
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This http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...igh+visibility is worth a browse through.
Wait until they begin insisting on hard hats.
Wait until they begin insisting on hard hats.
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On a dark night on a busy ramp I can see the need for the Hi-VIS but on a summers day at Kemble ? I think not!!
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Not a lot of trees on an airfield !
A bit flippent perhaps but I can't get over the fact that this H&S mania that has come apon us is lulling people into a feeling that life is risk free.
I have doubts about how the next generation is going to cope because they have been cocooned in a risk free enviroment but parents and schools. How are these people going to asses the risks of a new situation without an internal data base to draw from?
I have always been very safety aware and make it my business to create a safe working enviroment for all that I work with, what I don't need is inappropriate H&S regulations that have been mandated my someone who has very little knowlage of the risks of working on and around aircraft.
The safety rules that I expect to be followed are based on years of practical experience of aircraft engineering and opperation. What I dont need is a numpty just out of university mandating a bunch of ill conceved rules.
A bit flippent perhaps but I can't get over the fact that this H&S mania that has come apon us is lulling people into a feeling that life is risk free.
I have doubts about how the next generation is going to cope because they have been cocooned in a risk free enviroment but parents and schools. How are these people going to asses the risks of a new situation without an internal data base to draw from?
I have always been very safety aware and make it my business to create a safe working enviroment for all that I work with, what I don't need is inappropriate H&S regulations that have been mandated my someone who has very little knowlage of the risks of working on and around aircraft.
The safety rules that I expect to be followed are based on years of practical experience of aircraft engineering and opperation. What I dont need is a numpty just out of university mandating a bunch of ill conceved rules.
Last edited by A and C; 8th Jan 2008 at 11:32.
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I don't think one could build an objective safety case for wearing hi-vis on an airfield, by which I mean demonstrating that hi vis clothing is going to prevent somebody driving a plane into a person walking airside, in the GA context.
At a busy international airport, say Heathrow, full of vehicles which are often moving around pretty fast, hurrying to load/unload some transport jet, it's a very different scenario.
But there are few if any vehicles around GA airfields, and planes taxi around very slowly.
The yellow-jacket business is mostly due diligence stuff. It's a cheap and easy way to make it look like you are doing something.
In many cases it is poor management. For example Norwich will confiscate your toothpaste, on your way out to your little plane. This is done because, they say, you are going airside and could pass the "explosive" to somebody who could then plant it on some 737. For much less than the salary of one or two of their huge number of "security" operatives they could tarmac and maintain a GA apron with its own dedicated access channel. It doesn't make any sense. And the locals know how to get around it anyway - they ask for a taxi to one of the flying clubs. The downside is that you then have to park on grass and taxi across some pretty rough grass/tarmac transitions. Great for prop strikes and thus safety
At a busy international airport, say Heathrow, full of vehicles which are often moving around pretty fast, hurrying to load/unload some transport jet, it's a very different scenario.
But there are few if any vehicles around GA airfields, and planes taxi around very slowly.
The yellow-jacket business is mostly due diligence stuff. It's a cheap and easy way to make it look like you are doing something.
In many cases it is poor management. For example Norwich will confiscate your toothpaste, on your way out to your little plane. This is done because, they say, you are going airside and could pass the "explosive" to somebody who could then plant it on some 737. For much less than the salary of one or two of their huge number of "security" operatives they could tarmac and maintain a GA apron with its own dedicated access channel. It doesn't make any sense. And the locals know how to get around it anyway - they ask for a taxi to one of the flying clubs. The downside is that you then have to park on grass and taxi across some pretty rough grass/tarmac transitions. Great for prop strikes and thus safety
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I nearly hit an army soldier out jogging, he had all dark clothing on and was in the shadow of a tree, I was wearing sun glasses as it was a very sunny bright day.
Seriously: all the defenders of H&S here should perhaps consider for a moment that in any given society where rules proliferate, they tend to increase to a point where they are not taken serious any more. If you see ONE hi-viz jacket you take notice. If you see 100, they are part of the landscape. I venture to say that in some environments today it might actually be safer NOT wearing one - you'll be the one standing out and getting noticed.
Again - in circumstances that necessitate it, wear them (I certainly do!), but on a GA field walking 20 paces out to the a/c......
I'm just finishing up one of the largest infrastructure projects of the UK and we have an absolute zero accidents approach and have won a fair few major safety awards and what is reportedly an enviable safety reputation.
Our first line is an absolute insistence that everybody on the working area - without fail - wears Hi-Viz, safety boots, safety helmet and safety glasses. They may strictly be inappropriate at times but if it becomes second nature to always wear them, then you WILL have them on when you need them.
I have worn Hi-viz as a natural part of my site clothing for the past 15 years or so and thus I don't notice it anymore. There is no doubt that it has contributed to the huge safety improvements in the UK construction industry over the past few years and many of the hazards are the same, moving vehicles coming from unexpected directions - because there are no defoined roadways, just a big expanse of ground.
Of course the cases for the use of hi-viz on the ramp at O'Hare versus in front of the club house at Fairoaks are wholly different - and I think the presence of numbers of moving vehicles or otherwise should be the deciding factor and it should surely be the case that a sensible risk assessment is carried out before any safety measures are implemented - but again my view is that if it becomes second nature to wear hi-viz, you are always safer with it than without it.
I DO keep hi-viz in my car in case I break down on one of my local country lanes and will always wear it. Mrs DG also has a hi-viz vest in her car that I foisted on her. I cannot vouch for whether she has ever worn it though !!!
I have no doubt that this argument will run and run until the day when it becomes .... like on construction sites and on the railways - enshrined in legislation .... as it surely will.
DGG
Our first line is an absolute insistence that everybody on the working area - without fail - wears Hi-Viz, safety boots, safety helmet and safety glasses. They may strictly be inappropriate at times but if it becomes second nature to always wear them, then you WILL have them on when you need them.
I have worn Hi-viz as a natural part of my site clothing for the past 15 years or so and thus I don't notice it anymore. There is no doubt that it has contributed to the huge safety improvements in the UK construction industry over the past few years and many of the hazards are the same, moving vehicles coming from unexpected directions - because there are no defoined roadways, just a big expanse of ground.
Of course the cases for the use of hi-viz on the ramp at O'Hare versus in front of the club house at Fairoaks are wholly different - and I think the presence of numbers of moving vehicles or otherwise should be the deciding factor and it should surely be the case that a sensible risk assessment is carried out before any safety measures are implemented - but again my view is that if it becomes second nature to wear hi-viz, you are always safer with it than without it.
I DO keep hi-viz in my car in case I break down on one of my local country lanes and will always wear it. Mrs DG also has a hi-viz vest in her car that I foisted on her. I cannot vouch for whether she has ever worn it though !!!
I have no doubt that this argument will run and run until the day when it becomes .... like on construction sites and on the railways - enshrined in legislation .... as it surely will.
DGG
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I have to say that I always carry a high viz jacket in the car just in case of breakdown. I don't want Porsche assist mowing me down.. 
However I really do despise the airfield high viz mentality being enforced by jobsworths with no safety case to actually back it up.
It's not really the high viz that bothers me, its the mindless and usually aggressive way it is enforced.
Cranfield are a classic example, I have had the idiot in the white truck driving over at breakneck speeds to dress me down for not having high viz. Got the hump when I asked him how he had seen me......
However I really do despise the airfield high viz mentality being enforced by jobsworths with no safety case to actually back it up.
It's not really the high viz that bothers me, its the mindless and usually aggressive way it is enforced.
Cranfield are a classic example, I have had the idiot in the white truck driving over at breakneck speeds to dress me down for not having high viz. Got the hump when I asked him how he had seen me......
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the idiot in the white truck driving over at breakneck speeds to dress me down for not having high viz
Which drags us back to the appropriateness of safety measures, supported by a proper risk assesment.
It is plain and clear that inappropraie safety measures only incite contempt, not only of them but of the appropriate ones too !!!
It is plain and clear that inappropraie safety measures only incite contempt, not only of them but of the appropriate ones too !!!
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Anyone remember 'Common sense' and 'Self Preservation' ????
In a previous life as a Fireman, we were required to wear Dayglo orange instead of flourescent yellow/green jackets on the railway network because, believe it or not, the drivers confused them with the green 'GO' signals......
..So, when on the motorway, I DO wear a hi viz jacket, because you can never tell which numpty is going to be fiddling with his mobile phone and not see you parked on the hard shoulder.
BUT on a small GA airfield, on a bright summer's day, not much going on? Forget it! I'm not blind or totally deaf, so I can see & hear when an aeroplane is bearing down upon me, and merely side step out of the way using common sense and self preservation. The requirement to wear a hi viz is merely an instrument by which pseudo Hitler H&S officials can exercise their 'power'
IMHO 'Health & Safety' legislation has done a lot to turn the UK into the nanny state we now live in. Unfortunately, to question the sense of it all is only going to annoy the said Hilters who have to justify their very existence.
PS Always makes me laugh when I see workmen around a building site wearing those ridiculous plastic bump hats, and standing under a crane load of steel girders, quite happy in the fact that they are wearing appropriate PPE
In a previous life as a Fireman, we were required to wear Dayglo orange instead of flourescent yellow/green jackets on the railway network because, believe it or not, the drivers confused them with the green 'GO' signals......
..So, when on the motorway, I DO wear a hi viz jacket, because you can never tell which numpty is going to be fiddling with his mobile phone and not see you parked on the hard shoulder.
BUT on a small GA airfield, on a bright summer's day, not much going on? Forget it! I'm not blind or totally deaf, so I can see & hear when an aeroplane is bearing down upon me, and merely side step out of the way using common sense and self preservation. The requirement to wear a hi viz is merely an instrument by which pseudo Hitler H&S officials can exercise their 'power'
IMHO 'Health & Safety' legislation has done a lot to turn the UK into the nanny state we now live in. Unfortunately, to question the sense of it all is only going to annoy the said Hilters who have to justify their very existence.
PS Always makes me laugh when I see workmen around a building site wearing those ridiculous plastic bump hats, and standing under a crane load of steel girders, quite happy in the fact that they are wearing appropriate PPE
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IMHO 'Health & Safety' legislation has done a lot to turn the UK into the nanny state we now live in. Unfortunately, to question the sense of it all is only going to annoy the said Hilters who have to justify their very existence.
It is plain and clear that inappropraie safety measures only incite contempt, not only of them but of the appropriate ones too !!!
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Quote:
I nearly hit an army soldier out jogging, he had all dark clothing on and was in the shadow of a tree, I was wearing sun glasses as it was a very sunny bright day.
In an airplane?
Could it have been the he was blinded by his bright gold bars and his reduced ability to see due to ego?
I nearly hit an army soldier out jogging, he had all dark clothing on and was in the shadow of a tree, I was wearing sun glasses as it was a very sunny bright day.
In an airplane?
Could it have been the he was blinded by his bright gold bars and his reduced ability to see due to ego?
Red On, Green On
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If you want a real high intensity aircraft operating area, try the flight deck of a fixed wing carrier.
How many modern-day hi-viz vests do you see? Yet the flight deck was, for those correctly-trained, very safe indeed, because people followed the drills, and thought safety.
The hi-viz vest is sometimes the ultimate @rse-covering device for people who want it to look like they've done something towards safety.
How many modern-day hi-viz vests do you see? Yet the flight deck was, for those correctly-trained, very safe indeed, because people followed the drills, and thought safety.
The hi-viz vest is sometimes the ultimate @rse-covering device for people who want it to look like they've done something towards safety.
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The hi-viz vest is sometimes the ultimate @rse-covering device for people who want it to look like they've done something towards safety.
And embrassed by those who need to be led. ( Even by idiots. )
And embrassed by those who need to be led. ( Even by idiots. )
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High VIZ Vest, Health and Safety-Nuts
Bruce Dickinson from Iron Maiden said that at the NEC centre they had banned their roadies from wearing shorts on stage due to Health and Safety and that any fans turning up wearing metal badges or chains on their clothing, will not be allowed in. 
In case they scratch someone when they dance up and down!!!
At the Red Bull race in London Docklands last year a cosmetically challenged woman in comfortable shoes, from Red Ken’s H&S, asked all the pilots to wear High Viz vests when walking out to their aircraft. Thankfully they all unanimously told her to FOXTROT OSCAR
. Imagine if that happened in Formula 1, the sponsors would have a fit!
As one of them said, it’s crazy to think that on a country road you can travel at 60mph at the same time as an on coming car travelling at 60mph, with only a 4 inch white line to separate the distance of the 120mph converging vehicles by approx 9 inches!!
On a railway station all the separates a waiting passenger and a through train travelling at speeds excess of 100pmh is a 4 inch yellow line and yet Official Plonkers can stop you walking to your aircraft on a fairly empty hard standing.
Of course there is an answer to this Nanny State Fascism.
JUST SAY NO!!!
In case they scratch someone when they dance up and down!!!At the Red Bull race in London Docklands last year a cosmetically challenged woman in comfortable shoes, from Red Ken’s H&S, asked all the pilots to wear High Viz vests when walking out to their aircraft. Thankfully they all unanimously told her to FOXTROT OSCAR
. Imagine if that happened in Formula 1, the sponsors would have a fit!As one of them said, it’s crazy to think that on a country road you can travel at 60mph at the same time as an on coming car travelling at 60mph, with only a 4 inch white line to separate the distance of the 120mph converging vehicles by approx 9 inches!!
On a railway station all the separates a waiting passenger and a through train travelling at speeds excess of 100pmh is a 4 inch yellow line and yet Official Plonkers can stop you walking to your aircraft on a fairly empty hard standing.
Of course there is an answer to this Nanny State Fascism.
JUST SAY NO!!!