European trip
European trip
Hi
I am thinking of doing a trip in the summer down to the south of Spain or somewhere similar. I am a fairly low hours PPL and have been to LFAT like most others but would like to travel further, as well as build hours towards my CPL. Thought about going to the USA but i have a share in a PA-28 which enables me to fly cheaper than in the US once you factor in flights etc.
Id be interested to hear from anyone who has done similar or with ideas for destinations/stopovers.
Also i will be starting to plan this soon and would appreciate any tips so i dont have to learn them the hard way.
Regards
Mike
I am thinking of doing a trip in the summer down to the south of Spain or somewhere similar. I am a fairly low hours PPL and have been to LFAT like most others but would like to travel further, as well as build hours towards my CPL. Thought about going to the USA but i have a share in a PA-28 which enables me to fly cheaper than in the US once you factor in flights etc.
Id be interested to hear from anyone who has done similar or with ideas for destinations/stopovers.
Also i will be starting to plan this soon and would appreciate any tips so i dont have to learn them the hard way.
Regards
Mike
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The best advice that I can give you is don't do too much flying! That might seem strange for a flying holiday, but it's true!
Do your flying in long days, land somewhere and spend three nights there. That gives you one day of traveling, and two days to see the location. Then move on again. It also gives you some flexibility in terms of weather planning.
There is nothing worse in my mind than having sent all that money flying to somewhere and then seeing nothing more of that place than the airport (and possibly a hotel room).
Second piece of advice I would give is if booking accomodation use the Accor group (Ibis, Mercure, Sofitel, Novotel etc). They allow you to cancel your booking without penalty up to 4pm on the day of arrival. This is excellent for the VFR traveler who may get stuck somewhere because of weather.
In terms of stopover places.....I enjoyed a few nights in La Rochelle which is probably on your route. Bordeaux was nice too, but you'll have to pay handling fees (from memory about 60).
Oh one other thing......if you stick to the international airports (as used by the loco's) you will get ATC in English, and usually not too expensive landing fees. If you venture to uncontrolled airports, expect to have to speak French/Spanish, though there often is no traffic anyway. Check your notams to make sure that ATC isn't off duty the day you are arriving/departing or you'll have to speak French/Spanish. It's a good idea to have a crib sheet for these languages, just in case, but in fairness I've never needed it where I didn't expect to.
dp
Do your flying in long days, land somewhere and spend three nights there. That gives you one day of traveling, and two days to see the location. Then move on again. It also gives you some flexibility in terms of weather planning.
There is nothing worse in my mind than having sent all that money flying to somewhere and then seeing nothing more of that place than the airport (and possibly a hotel room).
Second piece of advice I would give is if booking accomodation use the Accor group (Ibis, Mercure, Sofitel, Novotel etc). They allow you to cancel your booking without penalty up to 4pm on the day of arrival. This is excellent for the VFR traveler who may get stuck somewhere because of weather.
In terms of stopover places.....I enjoyed a few nights in La Rochelle which is probably on your route. Bordeaux was nice too, but you'll have to pay handling fees (from memory about 60).
Oh one other thing......if you stick to the international airports (as used by the loco's) you will get ATC in English, and usually not too expensive landing fees. If you venture to uncontrolled airports, expect to have to speak French/Spanish, though there often is no traffic anyway. Check your notams to make sure that ATC isn't off duty the day you are arriving/departing or you'll have to speak French/Spanish. It's a good idea to have a crib sheet for these languages, just in case, but in fairness I've never needed it where I didn't expect to.
dp
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My tips for planning, don't bother so far in advance. Buy the charts, decide where you want to go and via and then just plan a leg at a time as you go.
I did an experiment last summer to prove how little you need to worry about advance planning when crossing Europe. I flew to Guernsey-Clermont Ferrand-Nice-Milan-Cannes-Dijon-LFAT over a long weekend and only decided on the next leg while refueling from the first.
It's no difficult, just get your weather, NOTAM etc as you and enjoy the freedom.
I did an experiment last summer to prove how little you need to worry about advance planning when crossing Europe. I flew to Guernsey-Clermont Ferrand-Nice-Milan-Cannes-Dijon-LFAT over a long weekend and only decided on the next leg while refueling from the first.
It's no difficult, just get your weather, NOTAM etc as you and enjoy the freedom.
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Decide where you are going the night before when the weather forecast is likely to be right. Make sure you are in town no later than 5:00 pm local, and you will have no problem finding a hotel. I normally fly 18 20 hours in six days, all VFR (I take one day off in the middle)
The above works in France, except the islands in peek season and northern Spain, no experience of south of Spain.
Rod1
The above works in France, except the islands in peek season and northern Spain, no experience of south of Spain.
Rod1
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I think there are three areas you need to think about. Firstly, are there any aviation "peculiarities" which you need to prepare for - airspace, arrival/departure procedures etc - nothing intensely difficult about this though, you just need to learn the rules for wherever you're going. Many places have the odd VFR procedure which we don't see in this country.
Secondly, non-aviation logistics (such as the good advice on the hotel front above, booking hire cars in advance etc etc). But this is just like any trip planning, with added "what happens if the wx clags up" factor ...
Thirdly, localised conditions. Will there be fuel available where you're going ? Sounds stupid ? Try getting avgas in many parts of Italy on certain days of the week ! How can you pay for it ? I once got stuck in Germany for several hours because the refuellers would not accept plastic, and the cash machines at this fairly large regional were kaputt!
Oh, and communicate by fax if you can ... if nothing else, it'll give you something to wave around angrily when the pre-booked fuel truck doesn't turn up !
Enjoy !
Secondly, non-aviation logistics (such as the good advice on the hotel front above, booking hire cars in advance etc etc). But this is just like any trip planning, with added "what happens if the wx clags up" factor ...
Thirdly, localised conditions. Will there be fuel available where you're going ? Sounds stupid ? Try getting avgas in many parts of Italy on certain days of the week ! How can you pay for it ? I once got stuck in Germany for several hours because the refuellers would not accept plastic, and the cash machines at this fairly large regional were kaputt!
Oh, and communicate by fax if you can ... if nothing else, it'll give you something to wave around angrily when the pre-booked fuel truck doesn't turn up !
Enjoy !
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I agree with most of what the others poster have said - the flying stop over balance is yours but do plan some dead days...
Couple of point to watch for in Spain.
1. File flight plans in there office using their carbon copy forms. Whilst not necessary at some big airports it can act as a "security pass" as they stamp your copy. Also carry your pilots licence as this also helps with security. Otherwise they are as relaxed as the French...
2. Beware especially in the south that they place a lot of VFR restrictions on the popular airports - Valencia etc. although when you fly past there is absolutely no traffic, they restrict which days VFR is allowed. Some of these are now publish in the AIP but some get NOTAM'd nearer the time. They will not allow such an airport as a diversion in a flight plan. As a consequence Mercia can get full. However the airport control staff are usually excellent at finding routes through, so dont let this put you off.
3. Some clearances may require you climb high or go out to sea if they have traffic. So be aware of the cloud bases even if well above your normal flying altitudes. (however once high you can often get a "direct" to where youre going )
3. All the spanish ATC speak excellent english and are very helpful.
I would thoroughly recommend going down that way. Almeria is very friendly and a good place for fuel - (I would recommend the Argentinean beef restaurant). Girona is also a lovely place to fly into (nr Barcelona) and has some beautiful scenery as you fly in. (Terrain awareness becomes important), but the town is a bit industrial and you are better traveling further for a hotel. Then I would recommend Carcassone (beautiful walled town) just over the mountains before flying backup through France.
PS. I would also recommend the Jepp VFR/GPS maps for Spain.
Couple of point to watch for in Spain.
1. File flight plans in there office using their carbon copy forms. Whilst not necessary at some big airports it can act as a "security pass" as they stamp your copy. Also carry your pilots licence as this also helps with security. Otherwise they are as relaxed as the French...
2. Beware especially in the south that they place a lot of VFR restrictions on the popular airports - Valencia etc. although when you fly past there is absolutely no traffic, they restrict which days VFR is allowed. Some of these are now publish in the AIP but some get NOTAM'd nearer the time. They will not allow such an airport as a diversion in a flight plan. As a consequence Mercia can get full. However the airport control staff are usually excellent at finding routes through, so dont let this put you off.
3. Some clearances may require you climb high or go out to sea if they have traffic. So be aware of the cloud bases even if well above your normal flying altitudes. (however once high you can often get a "direct" to where youre going
)3. All the spanish ATC speak excellent english and are very helpful.
I would thoroughly recommend going down that way. Almeria is very friendly and a good place for fuel - (I would recommend the Argentinean beef restaurant). Girona is also a lovely place to fly into (nr Barcelona) and has some beautiful scenery as you fly in. (Terrain awareness becomes important), but the town is a bit industrial and you are better traveling further for a hotel. Then I would recommend Carcassone (beautiful walled town) just over the mountains before flying backup through France.
PS. I would also recommend the Jepp VFR/GPS maps for Spain.
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Oh, and communicate by fax if you can ... if nothing else, it'll give you something to wave around angrily when the pre-booked fuel truck doesn't turn up !
PS. I would also recommend the Jepp VFR/GPS maps for Spain.
dp
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Lots of good advice above.
One could write a whole lot of "operational tips" on foreign flying.
#1 top tip is: always get Avgas immediately after landing. If the van or bus turns up to take you away (usually happens fast) refuse to board it until avgas turns up. This avoids undefined waiting prior to departure.
#2 Contact the airport first (phone or fax) to check avags availability and acceptable payment methods. Some take weird combinations only e.g. only Mastercard. Some take only cash!
#3 Contact the airport first re PPR and any special requirements. Best done by fax, and say on it it is OK to hand write the reply on the fax and fax it back (not many people can or want to type up faxes these days).
#4 Try to be independent when it comes to getting weather and filing flight plans, GAR forms, etc. This means having mobile internet (a laptop with GPRS/3G). Flight plans are filed using Homebriefing. This removes a massive chunk of hassle from flying distances. Airports vary hugely in their facilities to pilots - Switzerland is the top with every thing laid on even at the smallest tarmac strip, the UK is pretty variable, and Spain is somewhere in the 3rd world. If you don't have mobile data, you can turn up at the airport at 9am and by 12:00 you are still hanging around waiting to file the flight plan.
#5 Try to pick every stop to be interesting in its own right, so if you get stuck there it doesn't really matter. The exception to this is if doing a long multi leg trip in very good stable weather, but it can get very stressful because it is so easy to get held up waiting for fuel etc. And pre-filed multiple VFR flight plans are a risky proposition; more often than not one of them will get lost and you don't discover this until you have started up and call up for departure clearance... Once I filed four all 3-4 days in advance and 3 of them vanished.
#6 Allocate tasks which carry a risk of delay to parts of the trip where you have time to waste. Getting avgas after landing is one example.
#7 Plan ahead your luggage. Split it into two parts: stuff that stays in the plane, and stuff that you take to the hotel.
#8 Phone the airport well before departure to check they have your flight plan (if you filed it via the internet).
#9 Plan most flights to depart in the morning. Pretty obvious really - gives you the most time to play, as well as usually the best weather.
La Axarquia (LEAX) is a nice sleepy destination near Malaga, but isn't international so one has to land somewhere within Schengen first, but in a PA28 one will have little choice about that anyway.
Spain is a great value for flying. The scenery is totally spectacular, weather is normally good, airspace is easy enough for VFR (though I sometimes had to fly at say FL105 to get above some restricted area, when the other option was to bank on getting a transit through some Class D, and I always preferred to take the guaranteed option). And if you say the word "commercial" 3 times when getting avgas, you can sometimes get half price avgas
Nowadays I go IFR (airways) for all foreign trips but France/Spain are so casual about things that one ends up flying more or less the same route! I am going to visit Granada this year, and a couple of other places in the north. The TB20 can do Granada in one leg.
One could write a whole lot of "operational tips" on foreign flying.
#1 top tip is: always get Avgas immediately after landing. If the van or bus turns up to take you away (usually happens fast) refuse to board it until avgas turns up. This avoids undefined waiting prior to departure.
#2 Contact the airport first (phone or fax) to check avags availability and acceptable payment methods. Some take weird combinations only e.g. only Mastercard. Some take only cash!
#3 Contact the airport first re PPR and any special requirements. Best done by fax, and say on it it is OK to hand write the reply on the fax and fax it back (not many people can or want to type up faxes these days).
#4 Try to be independent when it comes to getting weather and filing flight plans, GAR forms, etc. This means having mobile internet (a laptop with GPRS/3G). Flight plans are filed using Homebriefing. This removes a massive chunk of hassle from flying distances. Airports vary hugely in their facilities to pilots - Switzerland is the top with every thing laid on even at the smallest tarmac strip, the UK is pretty variable, and Spain is somewhere in the 3rd world. If you don't have mobile data, you can turn up at the airport at 9am and by 12:00 you are still hanging around waiting to file the flight plan.
#5 Try to pick every stop to be interesting in its own right, so if you get stuck there it doesn't really matter. The exception to this is if doing a long multi leg trip in very good stable weather, but it can get very stressful because it is so easy to get held up waiting for fuel etc. And pre-filed multiple VFR flight plans are a risky proposition; more often than not one of them will get lost and you don't discover this until you have started up and call up for departure clearance... Once I filed four all 3-4 days in advance and 3 of them vanished.
#6 Allocate tasks which carry a risk of delay to parts of the trip where you have time to waste. Getting avgas after landing is one example.
#7 Plan ahead your luggage. Split it into two parts: stuff that stays in the plane, and stuff that you take to the hotel.
#8 Phone the airport well before departure to check they have your flight plan (if you filed it via the internet).
#9 Plan most flights to depart in the morning. Pretty obvious really - gives you the most time to play, as well as usually the best weather.
La Axarquia (LEAX) is a nice sleepy destination near Malaga, but isn't international so one has to land somewhere within Schengen first, but in a PA28 one will have little choice about that anyway.
Spain is a great value for flying. The scenery is totally spectacular, weather is normally good, airspace is easy enough for VFR (though I sometimes had to fly at say FL105 to get above some restricted area, when the other option was to bank on getting a transit through some Class D, and I always preferred to take the guaranteed option). And if you say the word "commercial" 3 times when getting avgas, you can sometimes get half price avgas
Nowadays I go IFR (airways) for all foreign trips but France/Spain are so casual about things that one ends up flying more or less the same route! I am going to visit Granada this year, and a couple of other places in the north. The TB20 can do Granada in one leg.
Last edited by IO540; 7th Jan 2008 at 16:58.
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You'll find a trip report http://home.btconnect.com/modair/htm...ugal_plus.html
Hi
Thanks for the replies so far. Exactly what i was after.
The aircraft runs on JetA1 so i wont have the Avgas problems but will need to check the airfields have this.
Just ordered a european flight atlas to choose some destinations. (I know i dont need to plan this far in advance but thats half the fun and the next best thing to actually flying
)
Regards
Mike
Thanks for the replies so far. Exactly what i was after.
The aircraft runs on JetA1 so i wont have the Avgas problems but will need to check the airfields have this.
Just ordered a european flight atlas to choose some destinations. (I know i dont need to plan this far in advance but thats half the fun and the next best thing to actually flying
)Regards
Mike
Do you think i would need an IMC to do a trip like this?
Can i fly VFR on top with a PPL in Europe or does the IMC allow this. I was under the impression the IMC was worthless outside the UK.
Mike
Can i fly VFR on top with a PPL in Europe or does the IMC allow this. I was under the impression the IMC was worthless outside the UK.
Mike
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26 or 27 pages?
The stipulation that you cannot fly VFR on Top (in other words, you have to stay in sight of the surface at all times) is a restriction on your CAA-issued, JAA (JAR-FCL) conforming (not, in this particular case) license. Since it's that license that you use to claim your flying privileges from, that restriction is also in place in other countries. Regardless of their exact interpretation of ICAO classes and VMC minima in those classes.
Once you obtain an IMC rating, the CAA lifts that restriction from your license. So then you can fly VFR on Top in a foreign country, as far as the CAA is concerned. Whether the country you're flying in allows that too depends on the country and the airspace class involved.
So in order for you to lift that restriction, you either need to get an IMC rating, or convert your CAA-issued license for a license issued by another JAA country. That means you've got to move to the continent for at least 180 days.
Now for the practical bit: nobody gives a damn, unless you are involved in an accident. Unless the authorities have really detailed pilot reports, or unless you flew directly over a controlled airport with a qualified met observer on duty, they can't prove you were VFR on Top, or in IMC, in any case.
And of course, whether VFR on Top, or IMC, or Night flying, is a good idea in a SEP is a whole different subject.
(Okay, now bring on the flak. We have about 25 more pages to go for Bose...)
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All good advice, just a few remarks from someone who spends his time in the air flying mostly in those two countries:
No (and please let us not get started, shall we?) 
Except for the smallest airfields, everyone should have Avtur. The authoritative reference for this and most other gen is, of course, the AIP.
France AIP: http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/
Spain AIP: http://www.aena.es/ (requires free registration)
I've never been refused a transit through class D in either of those countries. In southern France they will often clear you through it even before you ask.
...but don't be too frustrated when you find they don't speak any English. Go there anyhow and supplement your speech with lots of gesticulating--if nothing else it will amuse them 
Nah, s*d the Ostriches. Flight plans are filed using OLIVIA, or just call any of the BRIAs in France. If you ask nicely enough they will even file flight plans for flights entirely outside French airspace. OLIVIA will also automatically give you all the NOTAMs, METARs, and (if you have a France Meteo code) TEMSIs, etc.
Actually, most airfields of any size should have at least a terminal for NOTAMs and flight plans and another one for weather or, often, an actual forecaster who can brief you on the weather if you manage to raise him from hibernation.
Which Spain are we talking about? The one in Europe/Africa? Excellent English? 
That will p1ss off the poor bastard who then has to type it into the system. Use the computer terminal wherever provided. Even if the new system is a pain in the lower back.
Yes, but the guy says he's a low hours PPL, so experiments are best left to scientists.
Agreed, or use the time honoured approach: 
Mostly agreed. Do be aware though that in some airfields in France, French is mandatory. Those tend to be really small airstrips where 99% of the traffic are local farmers, so it probably makes sense to have it that way. Having said that, people tend to be accommodating in this regard. What I wouldn't recommend is attempting to do the RT in a language you are not fluent--as said previously, leave the experimenting to the professionals.
Lastly, a couple things to add:
HTH. You will have a great time doing this
Do you think i would need an IMC to do a trip like this?
The aircraft runs on JetA1 so i wont have the Avgas problems but will need to check the airfields have this.
France AIP: http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/
Spain AIP: http://www.aena.es/ (requires free registration)
I sometimes had to fly at say FL105 to get above some restricted area, when the other option was to bank on getting a transit through some Class D
Phone the airport well before departure to check they have your flight plan
Flight plans are filed using Homebriefing.
Spain is somewhere in the 3rd world
All the spanish ATC speak excellent english and are very helpful.
Which Spain are we talking about? The one in Europe/Africa? Excellent English?
File flight plans in there office using their carbon copy forms
I did an experiment last summer to prove how little you need to worry about advance planning
Second piece of advice I would give is if booking accomodation use the Accor group
Oh one other thing......if you stick to the international airports (as used by the loco's) you will get ATC in English, and usually not too expensive landing fees. If you venture to uncontrolled airports, expect to have to speak French/Spanish, though there often is no traffic anyway
Lastly, a couple things to add:
- Get the French VFR guide -- it's only 25.- and really handy to have
- If you forget/lose any charts, there is a well-stocked shop at the GA terminal in Toulouse (and I'm sure a few other airports as well, but that's the one I know of)
HTH. You will have a great time doing this
