N Reg FAA IR threat from EASA
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Scooter Boy
Wont rise to the bait but take each of your comments one by one.
Tell you what lets have everybody have evergreen ratings, lets have the perennial IMC rating, The evergreen MEP, Lets have the BA pilots that take you on Holiday scrap their sim refreshers and have the day off instead.
Why not - you dont need to demonstrate abilty to anybody else other than yourself so why should I or anybody else. You still expect the privileges but cry like a spoilt child when EASA threaten to take them away
having to demonstrate you ability has been in the UK system for donkeys, people moan about the IR as it is now - imagine having to drive to Heathrow to vist CAAFU and do your test in a DH Dove that you might have never seen before never mind flown!
As people have said the FAA system works very well in the US that does not mean that it translates perfectly over here, you only subscribe to it because it suits you to do so. The sooner you accept that IN EUROPE which is WHERE YOU FLY (Facts by the way) you are the Exception not the rule and therefore by all intents and purposes vulnerable - dont shoot the messenger (or me) write to your MP.
Whats non evidence about seeing it with my own eyes - this is not a court of law, I don't need to prove it to you or anybody else. If you are on the side of the muppet Malibu driver then come out and say - it happened.
There are also many more occasions. Consider spending 6 days a week at an airfield from 8am till 6pm (as I used to) - you do see a lot of very dodgy stuff take place on all registers both N & G.
In my corner of the industry there is a big problem with N reg operators flying for hire and reward. DOnt even get me started on the 61.55 regs and how the CAA had to ground a G4 and a Boeing BBJ in Luton becasue they had A & P qualified PPL's sat in the RHS - perfectly legal over in the US just not in Europe.
Your worst fears will come to pass, this will be a shame. For all the FAA IR holders on here that take time to defend their privileges good on you. But you need to worry about the ones that don't come on here that never train, cause chaos with ATC, that are unaccountable. They are the ones that will bolox it for the good guys. EASA will legislate to the lowest common denominator. I dont make this stuff up - did somebody in EASA just wake up and decide were going to piss all over the Chicago convention today becasue I can? There must be some fire somewhere dont just think within the UK.....
I've no interest in FAA bashing I'll say it again I LOVE THE FAA and the US SYSTEM find me a rooftop and I'll shout it there, I haven't instructed in two and a bit years. I've no axe to grind - EASA have - if you look up unfortunately you'll see it clearly.
I think I have forecasted the way it will go - I hope I'm wrong.
Now to quote me
Im sorry we don't agree - If I was in your position, I would have an FAA/IR as well. I sincerely hope you get to keep it in 2008/9
Happy New Year to you too.
Wont rise to the bait but take each of your comments one by one.
What this question really boils down to is are we going to have to tolerate the imposition of extra European regulation of unproven safety benefit on a far larger more proven (FAA) system that already works perfectly well.
Why not - you dont need to demonstrate abilty to anybody else other than yourself so why should I or anybody else. You still expect the privileges but cry like a spoilt child when EASA threaten to take them away
having to demonstrate you ability has been in the UK system for donkeys, people moan about the IR as it is now - imagine having to drive to Heathrow to vist CAAFU and do your test in a DH Dove that you might have never seen before never mind flown!
As people have said the FAA system works very well in the US that does not mean that it translates perfectly over here, you only subscribe to it because it suits you to do so. The sooner you accept that IN EUROPE which is WHERE YOU FLY (Facts by the way) you are the Exception not the rule and therefore by all intents and purposes vulnerable - dont shoot the messenger (or me) write to your MP.
If our regulators take small-minded bigots like you (blurting out non-evidence-based diatribes about how some bloke once in an N-reg malibu once did something that you found offensive) seriously then this may come to pass
There are also many more occasions. Consider spending 6 days a week at an airfield from 8am till 6pm (as I used to) - you do see a lot of very dodgy stuff take place on all registers both N & G.
In my corner of the industry there is a big problem with N reg operators flying for hire and reward. DOnt even get me started on the 61.55 regs and how the CAA had to ground a G4 and a Boeing BBJ in Luton becasue they had A & P qualified PPL's sat in the RHS - perfectly legal over in the US just not in Europe.
Your worst fears will come to pass, this will be a shame. For all the FAA IR holders on here that take time to defend their privileges good on you. But you need to worry about the ones that don't come on here that never train, cause chaos with ATC, that are unaccountable. They are the ones that will bolox it for the good guys. EASA will legislate to the lowest common denominator. I dont make this stuff up - did somebody in EASA just wake up and decide were going to piss all over the Chicago convention today becasue I can? There must be some fire somewhere dont just think within the UK.....
Fortunately you and your extremely judgemental evidence-free opinions are polarised into a tiny minority. A minority who usually have a vested interest in FAA bashing and are heavily invested in the european flight training system.
I've no interest in FAA bashing I'll say it again I LOVE THE FAA and the US SYSTEM find me a rooftop and I'll shout it there, I haven't instructed in two and a bit years. I've no axe to grind - EASA have - if you look up unfortunately you'll see it clearly.
I think the regulatory authorities will take a rather more pragmatic and mature view than those that you have espoused above
I think I have forecasted the way it will go - I hope I'm wrong.
I hope you wake up on Jan 1st 2008 with a better attitude and greater tolerance for your fellow man.
I'll say again IM PRO FAA and OPEN SKIES for everyone
Happy New Year to you too.
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I'm just about to start the FAA IR training course in Europe to upgrade my IMCr - just got an SR22 on the N Reg - after reading through the threads - I'm wondering whether I should save my energy for a while - any thoughts??
Nothing is for ever. Your airfield could close and be turned into a housing estate, etc, etc. Or you could die of cancer next year - that is actually quite likely.
The FAA route is under threat but it has been "under threat" for decades. Perhaps this time the threat is stronger, simply because action by a pan European agency would be more effective than action by a single country (like the UK DfT proposal, abandoned in 2006, or the French proposal, abandoned a bit earlier, and both these were abandoned in the most enormous haste possible). But nothing is a done deal - much as some people on here like to make out it is.
According to a chap I spoke to the other day, a figure well connected (not on a committee but at a relevant political level) reports that even the outcome of the EASA MDM032 committee which set the LAPL, or any other EASA committee, is not a done deal, and this is in fact absolutely correct because the real power at EASA is in the executive. An EASA committee could demand that every pilot flying in Europe wears pink underpants, but somebody else then has to do the implementation.
And if you have the FAA IR and then the option were to be killed off, look at what you have actually lost:
If you didn't do the FAA IR you would have been limited to VFR (in Europe, and you aren't getting a rocket like an SR22 to fly to the pub in Bembridge are you!) which is no good for going anywhere. So you gained a valuable privilege.
The earliest possible time the FAA option could be killed off is a few years from now, taking into account the legislative process and any transitional period - the whole thing would be massive controversial as well as a practical nightmare with re-certification (or export or scrapping) of thousands of FAA STCd but non EASA compliant aircraft and equipment.
Currently you can convert an ICAO IR to a JAA IR with anywhere from zero to 15hrs (depending on where in Europe you do it, JAA itself requires zero) flight training, and sitting the appropriate PPL or CPL ground exams.
Having an ICAO IR exempts you from physically attending the ground school too (I have a reference for this - it's in LASORS).
Therefore, the FAA IR is in itself a valuable stepping stone to a JAA IR. The FAA flight training is very hard and will set you up for what is required of you later. If you had the IMC Rating and spent 100 hours under the hood training for that, that instrument time counts for zilch zero nowt nothing towards a JAA IR! But it counts fully towards the FAA IR.
And I believe it is an objectively correct statement that should the FAA route be killed off (and thus stripping a few thousand European pilots of their IFR privileges) it would not be in EASA's interest to shaft them further by denying them an ugrade to whatever IR EASA offers at that point. Only European IR schools would lobby against that (for obvious revenue reasons) incidentally placing the European AOPAs of which they are members in a rather delicate position....
So, just looking at the political scenery and looking at how aviation regulation has run over the past decades, it is a reasonable expectation that grandfather options would appear; for example the holder of an FAA IR would get an EASA IR by sitting some exams, doing an IR checkride, and then doing a checkride every year like they do presently.
There is IMHO zero chance of EASA adopting the FAA rolling currency option. While this evidently works perfectly over a few tens of thousands of pilots, it runs counter to the European way of doing things which is to assume the default position is that the pilot is a crook, is forging his logbook, and he must be verified regularly. The FAA system is good for regular pilots; I did 184 hours in 2007 and met the rolling currency requirements several times over at all times, and never had the slightest issue with any IFR flight anyway.
Slightly more hypothetical scenarios are downgraded grandfather routes e.g. an FAA CPL/IR gets you extra credit towards an EASA PPL/IR. I would recommend the FAA CPL - it's a very good aircraft handling training block, with just one written exam which is mostly on aircraft technical issues and is not a problem for any technically savvy pilot. A CPL gets you cheaper insurance too.
So by getting on with your plan doesn't really lose you anything of significance.
Incidentally I would say the same to anybody wishing to do the IMC Rating right now.
The sensible thing I would do, and I do this myself, is avoid modifications to the aircraft which would make a transfer to a Euro reg uneconomical or even impossible. Mine used to be on G-reg and I have kept it unmodified while on the N-reg, with the exception of fitting a certain FAA STCd backup instrument which is damn useful but whose EASA L2 certification would cost 4 digits but which I could remove in an hour. And make sure you obtain and keep EASA acceptable paperwork with anything installed (i.e. an FAA 8130-3 "yellow tag" form - this is good enough for a Euro reg unless operated under an AOC) otherwise you would have to recertify/rip out the said item.
So, cover your a**e and enjoy life! If in 5 years' time you are asking the same question on here, you will be sick that you didn't get off your bum and got on with it
I've sent you a PM also with extra info.
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And I believe it is an objectively correct statement that should the FAA route be killed off (and thus stripping a few thousand European pilots of their IFR privileges) it would not be in EASA's interest to shaft them further by denying them an ugrade to whatever IR EASA offers at that point
Thus leaving the UK out (because it is anti-everything that is European) there would be very few disadvantaged pilots and as you also quite correctly point out, some countries follow the JAR guidelines for converting a non-JAA PPL/IR to a JAA PPL/IR which makes it very easy.
Thus politically, from a European point of view it is rather easy to bring
in and the UK cries will be just dismissed as yet another bit of anti-Europe heckling from the back.
Regards,
DFC
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While a "few thousand" European pilots hold FAA IR's - (once you get one it is like a bit of gum on the sole of your shoe i.e. you can't get rid of it)
Well done, DFC ...
FF -(
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Let's be nice to DFC as a New Year gesture. From my last post, he did have to work awfully hard to find the 2 lines that he tried to hang his old coat on. And his coat must be pretty heavy, with all that gold braid.
It isn't hard to get an estimate of N-reg fixed and rotary aircraft in Europe (there is a reasonably accurate plane spotter website for the UK) and nearly all of these will be flying under FAA licenses/ratings. One would rarely bother to be on N-reg otherwise - exceptional cases excepted there is no cost saving over private CofA G-reg for example.
It isn't hard to get an estimate of N-reg fixed and rotary aircraft in Europe (there is a reasonably accurate plane spotter website for the UK) and nearly all of these will be flying under FAA licenses/ratings. One would rarely bother to be on N-reg otherwise - exceptional cases excepted there is no cost saving over private CofA G-reg for example.
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Let's be nice to DFC as a New Year gesture. From my last post, he did have to work awfully hard to find the 2 lines that he tried to hang his old coat on. And his coat must be pretty heavy, with all that gold braid.
tell me (cue best bedside manner voice) did you ever aspire to doing this for a living? 
Ironic as most professional pilots who are on their third or fourth log book would kill for a "proper" job whilst affording to be able to fly 200 odd hours to destinations of their choosing when they want.
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tell me (cue best bedside manner voice) did you ever aspire to doing this for a living?
No, never had the slightest interest. I have a business a girlfriend 2 kids & an ex wife and that keeps me busy enough
I like flying with professional pilots because I usually learn something from them when it comes to cockpit or IFR procedures.
No, never had the slightest interest. I have a business a girlfriend 2 kids & an ex wife and that keeps me busy enough
I like flying with professional pilots because I usually learn something from them when it comes to cockpit or IFR procedures.
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IO540 is it just me or have you got just a leeeetle chip on your shoulder about professional pilots, having read this thread all the way through before posting, it would appear that in reality you are a frustrated professional pilot and demonstrating certain tell tale signs of jealousy. tell me (cue best bedside manner voice) did you ever aspire to doing this for a living?
And some self professed "professional" pilots on Pprune are not even professional pilots, but pretend to be, sitting in their darkened lounge with a rule book trying to stir up rubbish.
Myself, I fly for fun, despite having professional qualifications and being offered work as a pilot . I have no interest in operating the gear or flaps of a boeing - it couldn't pay me enough either
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And some self professed "professional" pilots on Pprune are not even professional pilots, but pretend to be, sitting in their darkened lounge with a rule book trying to stir up rubbish.
FF
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The problem is that some "Professional" Pilots are so far up their own bottoms, that their head is in danger of popping out of their mouth - if that is possible. I don't include true professional pilots in that by the way. You can tell the true professional pilots, I have many friends who are professional pilots, and enjoy flying with and learning from them. Mind you you never see them here on Pprune spouting such extreme views as some "professional" pilots do.
And some self professed "professional" pilots on Pprune are not even professional pilots, but pretend to be, sitting in their darkened lounge with a rule book trying to stir up rubbish.
Myself, I fly for fun, despite having professional qualifications and being offered work as a pilot .
And some self professed "professional" pilots on Pprune are not even professional pilots, but pretend to be, sitting in their darkened lounge with a rule book trying to stir up rubbish.
Myself, I fly for fun, despite having professional qualifications and being offered work as a pilot .
And as for operating the gear and flaps of a boeing, you'd probably end up having a row with the captain about the order and the Flight Attendant about there only being meat or fish to choose from.
Judging by your attitude its probably better from a CRM point for you to stay in your current profession, I will unashamedly stick with mine despite a very undisguised stab at my professionalism -Which I take great exception at. Your opinion might worry me if you had ever been past 200 knots whilst in control
as you are clearly not qualified to comment.I only wished to express an opinion on a subject that directly affects me - The amount of Sh1te you get for disagreeing speaks much more about you than me. May I graciously apologise for daring to not share your opinion.
In the meantime enjoy your IFR flying whilst it lasts, whenever I here Air Traffic categoricaly state "remain clear of controlled airspace" I shall think of you.
PS
despite having professional qualifications and being offered work as a pilot . I have no interest in operating the gear or flaps of a boeing
Happy New Year
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In the meantime enjoy your IFR flying whilst it lasts, whenever I here Air Traffic categoricaly state "remain clear of controlled airspace" I shall think of you
Fortunately you are a rare personality type and cooler heads usually prevail when anything actually gets near to implementation.
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Glasshouses & Stones
Errrrrrrrrrr. no I didnt - you did, scroll up its right there to see or had you forgotten already.
Judge people at your peril on these forums, not once have I had a go at anybody's abilitys on here. In fact quite the opposite, leave peoples professionalism out of it - you are not qualified to comment, its the issue that should be being discussed here, when it does get discussed people with (shock horror) an alternative view get flamed and personally insulted.
Spiteful - yes, deserved - yes, sorry it got said -yes
Look chaps you have got to start to see this from other peoples perspectives, and as for personality types, well I'll follow my own advice and not go there.
I'll not post on this thread again, theres nothing more to be said about FAA/IR's and privileges in EASAland than has been said already, if it continues we'll all be tempted to sound like kids.
Best of luck keeping the privileges, maybe when the ruling does come we can resurrect it from page 9 and keep the debate going
Judge people at your peril on these forums, not once have I had a go at anybody's abilitys on here. In fact quite the opposite, leave peoples professionalism out of it - you are not qualified to comment, its the issue that should be being discussed here, when it does get discussed people with (shock horror) an alternative view get flamed and personally insulted.
Spiteful - yes, deserved - yes, sorry it got said -yes
Look chaps you have got to start to see this from other peoples perspectives, and as for personality types, well I'll follow my own advice and not go there.
I'll not post on this thread again, theres nothing more to be said about FAA/IR's and privileges in EASAland than has been said already, if it continues we'll all be tempted to sound like kids.
Best of luck keeping the privileges, maybe when the ruling does come we can resurrect it from page 9 and keep the debate going
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Ok, I'll agree a truce. Sometimes on Internet forums posts don't come across how one intends, and I like to vigorously defend as you may have gathered....no offence intended...... . I've been snowboarding all day and the air is a bit thin at 10.5K for hard physical activity. Not to mention the red wine.
so I can't be bothered to have silly online arguements
Still I am looking forward to flying the Citation into Tahoe for some more snowboarding in March....I'll start a thread on Pprune detailing how exciting it is travelling at over 200 kts if you like
Happy New Year......to all......
so I can't be bothered to have silly online arguementsStill I am looking forward to flying the Citation into Tahoe for some more snowboarding in March....I'll start a thread on Pprune detailing how exciting it is travelling at over 200 kts if you like
Happy New Year......to all......
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Is this why the US is littered with the twisted metal resulting from the endless midair collisions caused by the people trained and current to the same standards?
Endless midair collisions?
Huge litters of twisted metal?
Really?
Could it be that the accident rate in the USA is about the same, generally, as in Europe...but that there are far more aeroplanes in America?
Naw, that couldn't be right.
Enjoy EASA-land folks, and appreciate paying the price.
PT Barnum was right with his quote...'There is a sucker born every minute'.
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Gspot, it is best to let this "EASA will screw all you cheapskates and there is nothing you can do about it, hahahaha" stuff rest. It just p155es people off because there is nothing cheap or easy about the FAA route.
Let me refer you to my last (lengthy) post here. I am sure you will agree there is nothing the individual can do about the process, and I am sure most would agree that taking pre-emptive action NOW is not wise either.
Instead, discussion should be directed towards constructive things, but obviously avoiding any informed discussion of what EASA might do and how each such measure might be avoided - we (and that includes your Boss on the M reg, and therefore your JOB) may need to develop countermeasures as different proposals are published and even pass into actual measures.
EASA has authority over FCL (including foreign reg) commencing c. 2010 but they still have to square everything with ICAO. Nothing is a done deal until the fat lady sings as they say.
Let me refer you to my last (lengthy) post here. I am sure you will agree there is nothing the individual can do about the process, and I am sure most would agree that taking pre-emptive action NOW is not wise either.
Instead, discussion should be directed towards constructive things, but obviously avoiding any informed discussion of what EASA might do and how each such measure might be avoided - we (and that includes your Boss on the M reg, and therefore your JOB) may need to develop countermeasures as different proposals are published and even pass into actual measures.
EASA has authority over FCL (including foreign reg) commencing c. 2010 but they still have to square everything with ICAO. Nothing is a done deal until the fat lady sings as they say.
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Instead, discussion should be directed towards constructive things
M Reg is ringfenced AFAIK. I Hence my previous (constructive?)suggestion that somebody call them and ask the question about a Manx Trust company.
Manx is outside EASA so
(and that includes your Boss on the M reg, and therefore your JOB)
EnglishAL
Enjoy the ride into Tahoe in the slowtation - send it to Pilot Magazine
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Nothing is ring fenced. It all depends on how the regs are drafted and who they want to hit (or more likely who they want to avoid hitting). But I am not going to get into a discussion on the options - not because I wouldn't like to but because of who else is reading this forum. You can work out most of it yourself (and the difficulty of legislating) by examining various cases.