Are Instructors in short supply?
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Are Instructors in short supply?
A friend was telling me the other day that they may have an instructor problem next year at their club and it seems one or two others are having similar problems.
Is this the case on/at your airfield/school/club?
Is this the case on/at your airfield/school/club?
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That's the impression I get. One club at my airfield had to advertise for a replacement, an instructor I knew had no problem getting a job in another part of the country and a club 'down south' has been offering FI training in exchange for working for them for a time. All points to a shortage developing to me.
It will be interesting to see if the EASA rumour of removing the commercial licence requirement will materialise - and how that affects the FI market. Personally, I never have understood the logic in assuming a PPL holder is safe to qualify and work as an FI if they aren't paid, but have to have a commercial licence if they are.
On the other hand, where are the aspiring airline pilots with £60,000 debts going to go?
It will be interesting to see if the EASA rumour of removing the commercial licence requirement will materialise - and how that affects the FI market. Personally, I never have understood the logic in assuming a PPL holder is safe to qualify and work as an FI if they aren't paid, but have to have a commercial licence if they are.
On the other hand, where are the aspiring airline pilots with £60,000 debts going to go?
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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Judging from the prominent banner advertisements at the top of Pprune pages, it isn't just civilian flying schools that are having trouble finding and retaining instructors.
https://cms.raf.mod.uk/rafinnsworth/...9649C20AB2.cfm
Interesting that the small print says they'd even take on civilians with no previous RAF service....the even smaller print says 'liability for call out to regular service'.
https://cms.raf.mod.uk/rafinnsworth/...9649C20AB2.cfm
Interesting that the small print says they'd even take on civilians with no previous RAF service....the even smaller print says 'liability for call out to regular service'.
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A shortage of flight instructors is a good thing.
Maybe the industry will review the situation and set standards for flight instructors that will demand a living wage be paid.
To do this of course the old school thinking that students can teach students has to be shi.canned.
Maybe the industry will review the situation and set standards for flight instructors that will demand a living wage be paid.
To do this of course the old school thinking that students can teach students has to be shi.canned.
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Isn't it interesting that the shortage of instructors does not lead to livable wages and a long term career for keen dedicated flying instuctors.
Rather the cry is to reduce the qualifications required to allow the tape and shoestring operation to carry on.
And yes there is a big big shortage of people willing to pay £30,000 to become an instructor to earn £10,000 per year (and maybe get a job flying for an airline)
Basically the whole flying thing is all hung together by people who volunteer their time to teach people how to fly free because they just love it.
And if you can't take a joke, shouldn't have joined.
Rather the cry is to reduce the qualifications required to allow the tape and shoestring operation to carry on.
And yes there is a big big shortage of people willing to pay £30,000 to become an instructor to earn £10,000 per year (and maybe get a job flying for an airline)
Basically the whole flying thing is all hung together by people who volunteer their time to teach people how to fly free because they just love it.
And if you can't take a joke, shouldn't have joined.
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I can see absolutely no reason to be an instructor in the UK unless:
a) You have another job and you just do it for pleasure
b) You get to teach something interesting (Aerobatics, instruments)
c) You have your own flight school
Many instructors do it for the hours. If that is the case, I'd do it abroad. I've seen many people move out to the USA (or elsewhere) for 2 years, get their CFII/MEIIs etc..and then instruct for 18 months, often on new aeroplanes. They get visa's sponsored by the FTO, get a place to live and make $25-$30 per hour which goes in their pocket. Ok, not much but after 2 years they walk away with an FAA ATP, 1500+ hours, and a JAR conversion, and the whole lot has actually "only" cost them £30,000 as opposed to the £60,000+ for 250 hrs in the UK.
My mate did this, and came back in Jan. He converted to JAR, did a type rating (paid for by the company) and is now a captain of a turbo prop (interesting flying, not airline) earning a good wage.
Wish I had done it
a) You have another job and you just do it for pleasure
b) You get to teach something interesting (Aerobatics, instruments)
c) You have your own flight school
Many instructors do it for the hours. If that is the case, I'd do it abroad. I've seen many people move out to the USA (or elsewhere) for 2 years, get their CFII/MEIIs etc..and then instruct for 18 months, often on new aeroplanes. They get visa's sponsored by the FTO, get a place to live and make $25-$30 per hour which goes in their pocket. Ok, not much but after 2 years they walk away with an FAA ATP, 1500+ hours, and a JAR conversion, and the whole lot has actually "only" cost them £30,000 as opposed to the £60,000+ for 250 hrs in the UK.
My mate did this, and came back in Jan. He converted to JAR, did a type rating (paid for by the company) and is now a captain of a turbo prop (interesting flying, not airline) earning a good wage.
Wish I had done it
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We should have a contest to see which country has the most stupid people in charge of flight training.
I know a couple here in Transport Canada that I would put money on to win the contest.
In fact I have one in mind that couldn't lose unless you put up someone that draws a flat line on a brain scan.
I know a couple here in Transport Canada that I would put money on to win the contest.
In fact I have one in mind that couldn't lose unless you put up someone that draws a flat line on a brain scan.
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Chuck, I can think of a few like that here in the UK as well.
18greens makes an excellent point, why just because there is a shortage of experienced FI's do the "powers that be" suddenly decide that a lowering of qualifications required is a good thing?
How come a driving instructor can earn a good living, but a flying instructor cannot.
The situation is ridiculous and I for one am glad there is a shortage. At last we have a chance to keep the dedicated people in this industry, but to do it, you have to pay them at least a living wage, instead of forcing everyone to move on at the earliest opportunity.
18greens makes an excellent point, why just because there is a shortage of experienced FI's do the "powers that be" suddenly decide that a lowering of qualifications required is a good thing?
How come a driving instructor can earn a good living, but a flying instructor cannot.
The situation is ridiculous and I for one am glad there is a shortage. At last we have a chance to keep the dedicated people in this industry, but to do it, you have to pay them at least a living wage, instead of forcing everyone to move on at the earliest opportunity.
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Another underused supply of instructors is the older generation who are retired or semi retired from having flown for a lifetime....
......I don't know what it is like in Britain but in Canada our regulator makes it to difficult to get an instructors rating ( or to renew one ).
My personal opinion is they do not want to have to deal with people who understand how to fly and how to survive flying.....what they want is mindless submission to their ideas of how to teach flying....
It is easier for them to control those who have been brain washed than try and B.S. those who understand the subject.
......I don't know what it is like in Britain but in Canada our regulator makes it to difficult to get an instructors rating ( or to renew one ).
My personal opinion is they do not want to have to deal with people who understand how to fly and how to survive flying.....what they want is mindless submission to their ideas of how to teach flying....
It is easier for them to control those who have been brain washed than try and B.S. those who understand the subject.
All this talk about lowering instructor qualifcation standards is interesting and begs the question, has the quality of instructing been improved since the interduction of the requirement for the CPL theory exams to allow instruction to be carried out?
I'm not sure that it has but it has led to the present day shortage.
On the other side of the coin has the quality of newby comercial pilots improved, some postings on PPrune would indicate the contrary.
I do think instructors should have a decent wage but obviously one of problems is with ever increasing running cost due to excessive and lets face it, sometimes ludicrous certification costs which are mandatory on the planes we use so the instructor is one place where money can be saved.
The catch 22 is of course if we increase the costs to the student then they decide to spend their money on something else so we won't need the instructor anyway.
It's a bit like when the NPPL was interduced (which I think is a good thing) and while being discussed at the club where everybody was more or less in favour our instructor at the time said "yes its a good idea but if they hadn't made it so akward in the first place we wouldn't be praising them now" in other words keep the masses hungry and they will appreciate dry bread.
I'm not sure that it has but it has led to the present day shortage.
On the other side of the coin has the quality of newby comercial pilots improved, some postings on PPrune would indicate the contrary.
I do think instructors should have a decent wage but obviously one of problems is with ever increasing running cost due to excessive and lets face it, sometimes ludicrous certification costs which are mandatory on the planes we use so the instructor is one place where money can be saved.
The catch 22 is of course if we increase the costs to the student then they decide to spend their money on something else so we won't need the instructor anyway.
It's a bit like when the NPPL was interduced (which I think is a good thing) and while being discussed at the club where everybody was more or less in favour our instructor at the time said "yes its a good idea but if they hadn't made it so akward in the first place we wouldn't be praising them now" in other words keep the masses hungry and they will appreciate dry bread.
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There is also a large number of SE Instructor rated airline pilots out there who would love to renew their ratings and do a bit of part-time instructing on their days off.
They are, generally, unable to do it as it affects their Flight Time Limitations/days off requirements (as stipulated by the CAA as it is classed as aerial work).
An airline pilot, on his day off, is unable to do a 30 minute trial lesson but could drive a taxi for 12 hours to help pay off his training loan. Which is the more stressful/tiring?
Experience that could be put to good use is lost to the light aviation fraternity.
Bonkers.
They are, generally, unable to do it as it affects their Flight Time Limitations/days off requirements (as stipulated by the CAA as it is classed as aerial work).
An airline pilot, on his day off, is unable to do a 30 minute trial lesson but could drive a taxi for 12 hours to help pay off his training loan. Which is the more stressful/tiring?
Experience that could be put to good use is lost to the light aviation fraternity.
Bonkers.
Educated Hillbilly
I have mentioned this in previous posts, but the biggest cause of the instructor shortage is the JAA training system. Under the CAA self improver route you had to obtain 700 hours to upgrade the BCPL to a full CPL, as a consequence nearly every modular/self improver went instructing to build the required hours. As aerial photography, tug and jump plane jobs are few and far between instructing was the only option for building the hours. The BCPL to CPL upgrade course was available but an expensive option.
Under JAA as you can hold a full CPL with only 200 hours many are opting for self sponsored type ratings as a way into the airlines rather than building hours by instructing. Flying school have always relied on hour builders as a source of instructors and the BCPL was in place for years under the CAA system. Look at the amount of modular 250 hour frozen ATPL holders starting with Ryanair this year by self funding a 737 rating; if the old CAA system was still in place all these candidates would have to instruct to get 700 hours in order to get a full CPL before been able to apply for an airline job.
This is the reason for the instructor shortage 1) Able to hold a full CPL at 200 hours and Self sponsored type ratings.
Under JAA as you can hold a full CPL with only 200 hours many are opting for self sponsored type ratings as a way into the airlines rather than building hours by instructing. Flying school have always relied on hour builders as a source of instructors and the BCPL was in place for years under the CAA system. Look at the amount of modular 250 hour frozen ATPL holders starting with Ryanair this year by self funding a 737 rating; if the old CAA system was still in place all these candidates would have to instruct to get 700 hours in order to get a full CPL before been able to apply for an airline job.
This is the reason for the instructor shortage 1) Able to hold a full CPL at 200 hours and Self sponsored type ratings.
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But by forcing people to instruct to gain 700 hours, how is that keeping a cadre of experienced FI's? All that happens is you get hour builders who disappear after a year or so.
That is rubbish for the industry and a prime reason why you get so few "career" FI's. People were forced into instructing, not because they wanted to, but because they HAD to.
If anyone thinks that reintroducing forced instructing is a way to get better standards, they are delusional.
At least now more of the FI's that are coming through actualy think there is something to gain from teaching, rather than just as a stepping stone.
I have been very impressed with some of the "new" FI's I have seen this year, far, far better than a lot of the people I started instructing with.
Whilst there may be a shortage, it does seem as if the standard is finally starting to go up a bit.
That is rubbish for the industry and a prime reason why you get so few "career" FI's. People were forced into instructing, not because they wanted to, but because they HAD to.
If anyone thinks that reintroducing forced instructing is a way to get better standards, they are delusional.
At least now more of the FI's that are coming through actualy think there is something to gain from teaching, rather than just as a stepping stone.
I have been very impressed with some of the "new" FI's I have seen this year, far, far better than a lot of the people I started instructing with.
Whilst there may be a shortage, it does seem as if the standard is finally starting to go up a bit.
Educated Hillbilly
Actually forcing people to get 700 hours worked extremely well, it is exactly how the system worked before 2002. Yes it kept them in the ppl instructing system for at least a year or two; where as now some clubs may only keep an FI(R) for a few months before he/she disapears to the airlines.
SAS, you may have some valid points but the CAA self improver route was in place for a couple of decades, only phased out in 2002 when JAA was implemented.
As far as I am aware PPL instruction standards between 1982 and 2002 were pretty good and having to obtain 700 hours meant the instructor was around long enough to see several students all the way through the course.
PPL Instructing was always a stepping stone to the airlines for probably 80/90% of people who ever instructed. However the system worked it provided the industry with a steady stream of instructors, yes you lost QFI to the airlines but at least you had a stream of BCPL/AFIs to replace them.
PPL instructing was never viable as a career and hour building instructors have infact help keep the price of flight tuition down over the years.
Career FIs are going to move onto CPL/IR instructing and so will never remain in the PPL training system for long.
Quote:
At least now more of the FI's that are coming through actualy think there is something to gain from teaching, rather than just as a stepping stone.
Correction, some people realise that instructing is a far better way to progress your flying career, develop skills than forking out 20,000 for a type rating.
SAS, you may have some valid points but the CAA self improver route was in place for a couple of decades, only phased out in 2002 when JAA was implemented.
As far as I am aware PPL instruction standards between 1982 and 2002 were pretty good and having to obtain 700 hours meant the instructor was around long enough to see several students all the way through the course.
PPL Instructing was always a stepping stone to the airlines for probably 80/90% of people who ever instructed. However the system worked it provided the industry with a steady stream of instructors, yes you lost QFI to the airlines but at least you had a stream of BCPL/AFIs to replace them.
PPL instructing was never viable as a career and hour building instructors have infact help keep the price of flight tuition down over the years.
Career FIs are going to move onto CPL/IR instructing and so will never remain in the PPL training system for long.
Quote:
At least now more of the FI's that are coming through actualy think there is something to gain from teaching, rather than just as a stepping stone.
Correction, some people realise that instructing is a far better way to progress your flying career, develop skills than forking out 20,000 for a type rating.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 8th Dec 2007 at 12:25.
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This industry is in the s**t precisely because of the idiotic practise of using "hour builders" It doesn't matter if someone stays for 6 months or 2 years, I don't call that experienced.
What we need is people to make a career out of instructing. The stupidly low rates of pay and borderline illegal practises of forcing FI's to be self employed when they blatantly aren't can be directly related to the "self improver" route, as people were forced into instructing and the terms and conditions were foisted upon them.
Now, the FI's have the choice and we need to stand up and be counted. It isn't greed to want to be paid a sensible amount and enjoy the job protections afforded to everyone else in this country. By doing this, we will also help to make the GA business stronger and more realistic. If it forces a fw small and cr*ppy clubs to the wall, then so be it, they will be replaced by something much, much better, that actually has a future.
We don't want to turn the clock backwards, but need to look as to how the industry can be made better and more stable. Having good, committed instructors is a start, but we also need to stop artificially keeping the costs low and set realistic prices.
If that makes flying less inclusive, that is something that can only be changed by utilising new machines like Ikarus etc, that can flown as a microlight.
Looking to the "olden days" just means you put on rose tinted specs and forget how rubbish they really were. Don't forget the lessons of the past, but don't be fooled into thinking that what went on was actually any good.
What we need is people to make a career out of instructing. The stupidly low rates of pay and borderline illegal practises of forcing FI's to be self employed when they blatantly aren't can be directly related to the "self improver" route, as people were forced into instructing and the terms and conditions were foisted upon them.
Now, the FI's have the choice and we need to stand up and be counted. It isn't greed to want to be paid a sensible amount and enjoy the job protections afforded to everyone else in this country. By doing this, we will also help to make the GA business stronger and more realistic. If it forces a fw small and cr*ppy clubs to the wall, then so be it, they will be replaced by something much, much better, that actually has a future.
We don't want to turn the clock backwards, but need to look as to how the industry can be made better and more stable. Having good, committed instructors is a start, but we also need to stop artificially keeping the costs low and set realistic prices.
If that makes flying less inclusive, that is something that can only be changed by utilising new machines like Ikarus etc, that can flown as a microlight.
Looking to the "olden days" just means you put on rose tinted specs and forget how rubbish they really were. Don't forget the lessons of the past, but don't be fooled into thinking that what went on was actually any good.
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At the rate at which fuel costs are increasing it's maybe not a bad thing.
In the space of less than 3 year, with what I would pay an hour lesson plus instructor now I can barely selh hire a 152.
Given that my wage hasn't increased, and going to the petrol station is a shocker, nevermind the avgas, if I was to start learning to fly all over again I'd probably give it a second thought now....
In the space of less than 3 year, with what I would pay an hour lesson plus instructor now I can barely selh hire a 152.
Given that my wage hasn't increased, and going to the petrol station is a shocker, nevermind the avgas, if I was to start learning to fly all over again I'd probably give it a second thought now....
Educated Hillbilly
I don't disagree instructors ideally in a real world should be paid more, but GA in this country is already under pressure from fuel prices, regulatory charges so any further price rises from increased instructor wages is only going to set back GA further.
Figures show people undertaking PPL courses has reduced in the last few years so anything that increases prices further really needs to be avoided.
SAS your suggestions are more likely to wipe GA of the face of the country than promote it.
SAS by the fact your profiles states you fly a 737 I would also assume you yourself were once an hour builder.
Figures show people undertaking PPL courses has reduced in the last few years so anything that increases prices further really needs to be avoided.
SAS your suggestions are more likely to wipe GA of the face of the country than promote it.
SAS by the fact your profiles states you fly a 737 I would also assume you yourself were once an hour builder.
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Yes, I was once an "hour builder" like most of us, but I have continued to teach no matter what else I have flown.
People gaining experience are not neccesarily the problem. I use the term "hour builder" for those FI's who do a rubbish job and really don't care about GA or light aircraft.
There are plenty of FI's I worked with who only came into instructing to get enough hours to get a jet job, but they did an excellent job as Instructors.
GA in the UK is in the dark ages. The standards are generally awful interms of equipment avaiable, training given and value for money.
The whole thing needs a shake up. Paying FI's more than an insult needn't kill the industry, I would argue that it would actually strengthen it.
PPL's and students need to realise that they are paying an artificially low amount in this regard.
Since the club I'm mainly involved with charges seperately for the a/c and the FI, this has allowed us to actually charge a sensible amont for an FI's time ad guess what...........The students don't whinge. A good FI is worth £30-40 an hour. We all know what an a/c costs to run, so there is nothing hidden.
Are we the cheapest around? No, are we the best value for money. Easily and that is why we are busy. Good instructors, even though the prices are higher are worth it in the long run.
Charging unrealistic amounts for any goods and services is stupid in the long term. GA in the UK is now suffering for it. We simply aren't a big or strong enough industry to do anything about it. If there were big associations or big companies invlved woth GA, then we would have a lot more success lobbying for change, rather than the disperate group we are today. Especially as flying is seen as a rich mans hobby.
You want tax relief........ Yeah right.
Will GA die in this country? I hope not, but in it's present form it is just wating for the lethal injetion at the moment. It isn't the cost that's killing it, rather the atrocious service that most clubs provide. All that will happen as prices go up, is that the numbers who can't afford it will have to change to other forms of aviation, such as microlight or "sport" flying rather than flying in your standard spamcans.
The industry will change and eventually be stronger for it, it just has to go through some pain first.
People gaining experience are not neccesarily the problem. I use the term "hour builder" for those FI's who do a rubbish job and really don't care about GA or light aircraft.
There are plenty of FI's I worked with who only came into instructing to get enough hours to get a jet job, but they did an excellent job as Instructors.
GA in the UK is in the dark ages. The standards are generally awful interms of equipment avaiable, training given and value for money.
The whole thing needs a shake up. Paying FI's more than an insult needn't kill the industry, I would argue that it would actually strengthen it.
PPL's and students need to realise that they are paying an artificially low amount in this regard.
Since the club I'm mainly involved with charges seperately for the a/c and the FI, this has allowed us to actually charge a sensible amont for an FI's time ad guess what...........The students don't whinge. A good FI is worth £30-40 an hour. We all know what an a/c costs to run, so there is nothing hidden.
Are we the cheapest around? No, are we the best value for money. Easily and that is why we are busy. Good instructors, even though the prices are higher are worth it in the long run.
Charging unrealistic amounts for any goods and services is stupid in the long term. GA in the UK is now suffering for it. We simply aren't a big or strong enough industry to do anything about it. If there were big associations or big companies invlved woth GA, then we would have a lot more success lobbying for change, rather than the disperate group we are today. Especially as flying is seen as a rich mans hobby.
You want tax relief........ Yeah right.
Will GA die in this country? I hope not, but in it's present form it is just wating for the lethal injetion at the moment. It isn't the cost that's killing it, rather the atrocious service that most clubs provide. All that will happen as prices go up, is that the numbers who can't afford it will have to change to other forms of aviation, such as microlight or "sport" flying rather than flying in your standard spamcans.
The industry will change and eventually be stronger for it, it just has to go through some pain first.