Forced landing on water or on trees ?
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Neither, I would deploy my BRS rocket parachute, call up the rescue services on VHF or on my mobile as I floated gently down, after touchdown step out side and either walk or swim to the nearest pub...
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More on the 'silly systym'
His body, together with that of the pilot and aircraft were found on 31st Oct 1971, the plane had been missing for just over nine weeks. Bentine's subsequent investigation into regulations governing private airfields resulted in him writing a report for the Special Branch of the British police into the use of personal aircraft in smuggling operations. He fictionalised much of the material in his novel Lord of the Levels
His body, together with that of the pilot and aircraft were found on 31st Oct 1971, the plane had been missing for just over nine weeks. Bentine's subsequent investigation into regulations governing private airfields resulted in him writing a report for the Special Branch of the British police into the use of personal aircraft in smuggling operations. He fictionalised much of the material in his novel Lord of the Levels
The assumption seems to be that for 'water', read 'water right next to the shoreline'.
If no, then around Britain, the shock of your 'soft' landing will aid your succumbing to hypothermia pretty quickly for much of the year.
If yes, then it's water for me, 'cos I can swim, and have (more than once) been dumped in water, rolled upside down strapped in and survived.
It's very disorientating.
CG
If no, then around Britain, the shock of your 'soft' landing will aid your succumbing to hypothermia pretty quickly for much of the year.
If yes, then it's water for me, 'cos I can swim, and have (more than once) been dumped in water, rolled upside down strapped in and survived.
It's very disorientating.
CG
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Water every time.
The time of the year doesn't matter much. You will probably die of hypothermia before they will get to you if you can't get into a liferaft.
Of course with a Cirrus you just pull the chute
The time of the year doesn't matter much. You will probably die of hypothermia before they will get to you if you can't get into a liferaft.
Of course with a Cirrus you just pull the chute
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An instructor on Vancouver Island told me to go for the trees, on the grounds that people do strange things when suddenly immersed in freezing water.
Having once been suddenly immersed in freezing water (a dinghy capsize in the Blackwater estuary in winter) I didn't disagree with him. I couldn't breathe, and my brain stopped working ... and that was wearing cold weather gear and a lifejacket, which I wasn't in the aircraft. I made it to the rescue boat under my own steam, four or five yards away, but I doubt I could have done much more; I don't remember how I got out of the water but I must have been pulled out, there's no way I could have got out by myself.
Having once been suddenly immersed in freezing water (a dinghy capsize in the Blackwater estuary in winter) I didn't disagree with him. I couldn't breathe, and my brain stopped working ... and that was wearing cold weather gear and a lifejacket, which I wasn't in the aircraft. I made it to the rescue boat under my own steam, four or five yards away, but I doubt I could have done much more; I don't remember how I got out of the water but I must have been pulled out, there's no way I could have got out by myself.
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There is no one answer, there are just to many different factors to take into consideration such as what are you flying and where are you at what time of the year.
Generally speaking though my last choice would be the water unless I was flying a sea plane.....for one thing I can breathe hanging from a tree while awaiting rescue far longer than I can under water.
I live on Vancouver Island and own a sail boat, when I'm out in my boat I often wonder how it would be to have just landed in a wheel equipped airplane and be out there in all that water hoping someone would be able to find me.....
Generally speaking though my last choice would be the water unless I was flying a sea plane.....for one thing I can breathe hanging from a tree while awaiting rescue far longer than I can under water.
I live on Vancouver Island and own a sail boat, when I'm out in my boat I often wonder how it would be to have just landed in a wheel equipped airplane and be out there in all that water hoping someone would be able to find me.....
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Just to give the military spin on things, the answer would be neither. In single engine aircraft (rotary and fixed wing (but not Harriers!)) the RAF teach that you should not overfly water, woodland, built up areas etc except at a height at which you can glide/autorotate clear. Good route planning means that such areas can almost always be avoided and en-route you should always be looking for a decent field.
It basically boils down to what level of risk you wish to personally accept. You can fly across the English Channel in a C152 and you probably won't have an engine failure. However, if you do, there's a pretty good chance that it'll kill you, if not in the ditching, in the egress or sea survival situations. Where do you draw your own flight safety line?
It basically boils down to what level of risk you wish to personally accept. You can fly across the English Channel in a C152 and you probably won't have an engine failure. However, if you do, there's a pretty good chance that it'll kill you, if not in the ditching, in the egress or sea survival situations. Where do you draw your own flight safety line?
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I had an instructor ask me this 27 years ago when I was doing my PPL. I picked the trees. When he asked me to rationalize my choice, I said quite simply: "I can't swim worth a $h!t!".
He replied "good answer, in that case go for the trees".
Of course, from late December 'till about late March in these parts, the "water" is actually ice (enough to drive across in a car), and that rather changes the game!
Either way though, if you survive a crash in an area where your only choice is trees or water, and it is any time from late spring to early autumn, the flies will likely get you, or at least drive you nuts, if you survive. Insect repellant is actually a pretty important part of your survival kit in these circumstances.
Beech
He replied "good answer, in that case go for the trees".
Of course, from late December 'till about late March in these parts, the "water" is actually ice (enough to drive across in a car), and that rather changes the game!
Either way though, if you survive a crash in an area where your only choice is trees or water, and it is any time from late spring to early autumn, the flies will likely get you, or at least drive you nuts, if you survive. Insect repellant is actually a pretty important part of your survival kit in these circumstances.
Beech
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Thanks for the loads of answers, the reason i asked was i was reading a text from Bob Martens who stated:
"Water versus trees: my personal sense is that water is not user friendly. In most water landings, the aircraft will not stay upright, leading to injuries and an immediate survival situation. Tree landings with the aircraft flown under control into the treetops are very survivable, often with only minor or no injuries to occupants. I’ve been associated with hundreds of accidents by way
of investigation and review, and the ones where the fatalities and serious injuries occur are when the aircraft hits the ground out of control -- stall spins, striking solid objects -- the outcomes are very, very sad and tragic. "
Now i also tought water was better, but this bloke claims the opposite!!!
"Water versus trees: my personal sense is that water is not user friendly. In most water landings, the aircraft will not stay upright, leading to injuries and an immediate survival situation. Tree landings with the aircraft flown under control into the treetops are very survivable, often with only minor or no injuries to occupants. I’ve been associated with hundreds of accidents by way
of investigation and review, and the ones where the fatalities and serious injuries occur are when the aircraft hits the ground out of control -- stall spins, striking solid objects -- the outcomes are very, very sad and tragic. "
Now i also tought water was better, but this bloke claims the opposite!!!
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Ditching may seem to be the softest option, but with a fixed undercart the chances of cartwheeling upon contact with water are very high - if your aircraft stalls out at around 65kts you're introducing three high drag points of contact to the water at about the same speed you cruise along a motorway (if ditching in calm wind), it would be a miracle to still be upright once you've lost all inertia.
Professional Student
Look at the JAL DC-8. They had a retractable undercarriage and underwing jets, but they carried out an unplanned water impact with the undercarriage extended - they got lost and thought it was San Francisco runway underneath them, instead it was San Francisco Bay. The plane did NOT cartwheel - it came to rest with wheels in the shallow bottom of the bay and water up to doorsills. Everyone was unhurt, the plane was fished out and flew again.
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Quite correct Hobbit, there is also a lot more area to be supported by the canopy gap and other trees.
The only example in the UK i know of is Bentines quoted above and he and his pax died. Thre have been many sucessful ditchings around the UK over the years.
sternone--is that book by an American if it is my advice is try and get the local charity shop to take it
The only example in the UK i know of is Bentines quoted above and he and his pax died. Thre have been many sucessful ditchings around the UK over the years.
sternone--is that book by an American if it is my advice is try and get the local charity shop to take it
Last edited by llanfairpg; 5th Dec 2007 at 10:19.
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sternone--is that book by an American if it is my advice is try and get the local charity shop to take it
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The time of the year doesn't matter much. You will probably die of hypothermia before they will get to you if you can't get into a liferaft.
True if you're ditching during an open water crossing, I'd imagine. In my case, if I were to ditch it would be
a) in the sea, very close to the coast or in between the islands, in an area that is full of pleasure craft and other boats and at least +15 deg in the summer, totally empty and at most +4 deg in the winter
b) in a small lake or river, within swimming distance from the shore and with similar difference in water temperatures
In those circumstances I do think the season matters.
I guess the only sensible answer is "it depends", but what a boring discussion that would be...
