Why can't you fly IFR in G-reg with an FAA IR?

[Slopey]

Could someone please explain *why* it is that you're not allowed to fly IFR in a G-Reg aircraft if you hold an FAA IR?

I know you can't, but provided the aircraft is appropriately equipped for flight in IFR, why does the CAA/ANO not allow it? After all, aircraft in general fly the same way in the air over in FAA land as over here in Euroland (although in FAA land you get less red-tape accumulation over the wings!).

Is it a case of trying to protect the UK flight training industry, or more likely, the CAA's pockets?

Just wondering is all!

[rustle]

AFAIK, you can't fly an "N" reg under IFR on a CAA ticket either.
Or can you?

You can't fly a "VH" reg IFR under an FAA/CAA or JAA ticket, you need a CASA one.

[englishal]

why does the CAA/ANO not allow it?

No it doesn't. We choose not to validate an ICAO IR in the UK.

Who knows the real reason. Probably the same reason that you still need to have a class 1 audiogram - a throw back from the 30's when you used to listen to ranging stations.....(never seen an Airbus pilot listening to one, but no doubt they are still in existence all over Europe)...

AFAIK, you can't fly an "N" reg under IFR on a CAA ticket either.
Or can you?

No you can't. But the Fed are nice enough to validate your CAA one if you sit a 50 odd question Multi choice exam and pass.......

[porridge]

You can use your FAA IR in G-reg - the CAA says you can

The CAA does allow you to use your FAA IR on G-reg aircraft. You can use the ICAO IR outside the country because as long as you have a UK CAA/JAA issued pilot's license then you are flying under the rules of the license issuing country (UK). Of course you may only use the IR for private flying and thus you cannot use it for any hire and reward.
Source of info - CAA FCL. PM me with your email address and I'll send you a copy of the email from FCL that confirms this.

[Whopity]

Article 26 applies to you whether you are in the UK or not so I am afraid your email from CAA is CRAP!

26 (1) Subject to the provisions of this article, a person shall not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom unless he is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.

(4) For the purposes of this Part of this Order:
(a) subject to sub-paragraph (b), a licence granted either under the law of a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom but which is not a JAA licence or a licence granted under the law of a relevant overseas territory, purporting in either case to authorise the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft, not being a licence purporting to authorise him to act as a student pilot only, shall, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, be deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order but does not entitle the holder:
(i) to act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or
(ii) in the case of a pilot's licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in
controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the
Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying;

[IO540]

This one has been done here before many times.

An ICAO (non-JAA) PPL/IR should be good for a G-reg worldwide, VFR or IFR, but only outside controlled airspace (OCAS).

If the CAA has offered an alternative interpretation of the OCAS bit that would be very interesting. I am not going to say it's crap because the ANO has so many nooks and crannies in it and very few people actually understand it properly. But it appears unlikely since it would avoid to need to fly an N-reg.

Is it a case of trying to protect the UK flight training industry, or more likely, the CAA's pockets?

Both.

[Life's a Beech]

I'm with IO540. I was always told that a holder of an FAA PPL/IR was entitled to fly IFR OUTCAS in a G-reg aircraft. Why does Slopey think otherwise?

[Contacttower]

I am awaiting an email (from the CAA) from porridge about this which claims that you can fly IFR in G-reg. It may turn out that it just says, yes, but only outside CAS. I wait in hope.

[Slopey]

My personal interest is to/from Class D which is what I meant in #1 - I should have clarified that. I'm assuming that flight within Class D, in G-reg with FAA IR is not permitted - correct?

If you can fly outside CAS in a G-Reg with an FAA IR, then so much the better.

[Whopity]

(ii) in the case of a pilot's licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the
Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying;

You can fly IFR outside controlled airspace so long as its not forbidden in the licence i.e. You can fly IFR outside CAS on a UK PPL with no IF qualification but not on a JAA PPL because its specifically forbidden.

If the CAA change Art 26, then they can only do so by issuing an Exemption, not an email.

[S-Works]

And just to add that only the UK allows the concept of flight under IFR outside CAS. So as we have always know you can fly in cloud in Class G. But nothing else. This is the reason why FAA IR pilots get an IMCR issued on the basis of the IR so they can enter CLass D for an IAP.

[IO540]

And just to add that only the UK allows the concept of flight under IFR outside CAS

That is categorically untrue. I have done loads of OCAS legs around Europe, as a result of asking for a shortcut on an airways flight.

ATC normally advise you that you are now outside controlled airspace and they want you to confirm that is acceptable.

[S-Works]

Don't be such an arse, you know exactly what I mean. Being off airways is a very different matter to filing IFR outside CAS and you know it.

[TheOddOne]

Confused? I am!

And just to add that only the UK allows the concept of flight under IFR outside CAS. So as we have always know you can fly in cloud in Class G. But nothing else.

Bose-x,

You've got me REALLY confused now!

Where is the correlation between flying UK concept IFR OCAS and flying in cloud i.e. IMC? AFAIAC, the two are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT concepts. IFR, UK-style is ONLY about flying above obstructions within 5NM, you are still obliged to meet the VMC criteria if you have a plain licence, no ratings.

Perhaps, as well as the campaign to keep the IMC rating, we should start another to get the definition of IFR changed to mean 'flight by sole reference to instruments' or similar, which seems to be the universal meaning around the world, except the UK.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[S-Works]

Not sure why you should be confused. The discussion is about the use of the FAA IR for IFR flight. IFR flight in this respect is Instrument Flight Rules regardless of the conditions and will include flight in IMC.

Only the UK allows flight under IFR in VMC. Anywhere else in the world if you fly IFR you have to have an IR.

Try filing an IFR flight plan across France as a vanilla PPL and then try and explain to the controller why you can't enter cloud.......

The point of my post is that the holder of an FAA IR in a G-Reg aircraft can fly under IR and in IMC in Class G airspace in the UK. They can file a flight plan as IFR but what they can't do is enter controlled airspace to carry out an IAP. The way around this is for them to get an IMCR based on the IR which then allows them to enter limited Classes of CAS to do a let down.

Outside of the UK it is worthless as the rest of Europe do not have our liberal rules when it comes to IFR.

As IO540 points out you can fly outside CAS in Europe under IFR but only if you have a full IR and are on an IFR flight plan. Try flying under IFR in the airways in a G Reg with just an FAA IR and see how many books get thrown at you.

edit for crap spelling

[TheOddOne]

Not sure why you should be confused. The discussion is about the use of the FAA IR for IFR flight. IFR flight in this respect is Instrument Flight Rules regardless of the conditions and will include flight in IMC.

Only the UK allows flight under IFR in VMC. Anywhere else in the world if you fly IFR you have to have an IR.

Bose-x,

Not confused any more, thanks for the full and complete post, as usual with threads there had been creep to include UK PPL priviliges.

As has been said in the past, the UK and the US are two nations separated by a common language.

TheOddOne

[IO540]

Don't be such an arse, you know exactly what I mean. Being off airways is a very different matter to filing IFR outside CAS and you know it.

OK, you are saying that it is impossible to file a Eurocontrol routing which has any part in Class F or G?

I would agree that one would not do it deliberately for fun (and indeed it is impossible in airspaces which have a max DCT distance of zero and thus force all flight plans to be on airways, e.g. Albania) but that is not the same thing as saying it is not allowed.

Sometimes, filing an flight plan with a DCT section which goes OCAS is the only way to get it into the system.

Incidentally, the reason why flying a G-reg on the FAA IR is not useful abroad is not because it is not allowed but because Europe doesn't have UK's extensive Class G (UNcontrolled) airspace. For example, France is Class E in most useful areas. One could do it but not generally, on airways routings.

[S-Works]

I say again don't be such an arse. This discussion is not about IFR flight planning. To be able to fly under IFR in Europe you are required to have an IR valid for the state of registry of the aircraft you are in. The fact that you may be able to get off airways for certain sections of the route is a moot point. You can't leave an airfield in Europe under IFR without an IR.

[porridge]

The email

Dear All
Here is the email edited for privacy.
Regards, P
From: FCLWEB [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 17 November 2007 13:26
To: *******
Subject: RE: could you enlighten me?
Dear Mr *****
Thank you for your e-mail, apologies in the delay of replying. In regards to your query, I can confirm that you may fly IRF on a CAA (G registered) plane with a CAA PPL combined with a FAA IR.
Regards
Personnel Licensing Department
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ********
Sent: 24 October 2007 09:59
To: FCLWEB
Subject: could you enlighten me?
I get varied advices on the use of n FAA IR (Instrument Rating) on a G registered plane
The question is simple:
Is it legal to fly IFR on a CAA (G register) registered plane with a CAA PPL combined with an FAA Instrument Rating in British and/or European airspace for private flights (ie not commercial)?
If it is not legal where can I find the legislation that applies?
If I have directed this question to the wrong department, whom should I address it to?
Many thanks,
******

[gcolyer]

Porridge.

I think you should ask them if it is legal to do so in IMC. Anyone (with a license) can fly IFR in VMC (not in CAS) in the UK in whatever reg aircraft.