Where do you join crosswind?
Avoid imitations
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I always look before crossing the road. I always look before joining the circuit. If an aircraft is climbing in the circuit, he has right of way. If there is any chance that I may cut in front of him onto the downwind leg, I would extend upwind and go behind him. There is no problem extending upwind to do so. There is also no problem in using the radio to announce it, btw!
Imagine two high wing aircraft, one joining, one climbing. The pilot of the one climbing will be blind to one above and to his left, especially if that aircraft is slightly behind (and catching up due to higher airspeed). The one joining and turning crosswind will be blind to aircraft below and on his right....
To risk cutting in front of an aircraft already in the circuit, to some "pre-programmed" standard pattern, with no flexibility or forethought is terrible airmanship.
Imagine two high wing aircraft, one joining, one climbing. The pilot of the one climbing will be blind to one above and to his left, especially if that aircraft is slightly behind (and catching up due to higher airspeed). The one joining and turning crosswind will be blind to aircraft below and on his right....
To risk cutting in front of an aircraft already in the circuit, to some "pre-programmed" standard pattern, with no flexibility or forethought is terrible airmanship.
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Everything works best for a left hand circuit.
The aircraft should join the circuit from the deadside by crossing the runway at the upwind end or close to that point over the upwind half of the runway.
There is no failsafe route.
While descending deadside, the pilot should have a good view of the aircraft in the circuit and on the ground departing.
In many cases it is not the departing aircraft which is the problem it is the one on final that makes a missed approach which can cause the most interesting situation.
One of the reasons for crossing at the upwind end is that everyone knows where to look to spot the aircraft.
As with the rest of VFR flying spot other aircraft and help them to spot you.
Regards,
DFC
The aircraft should join the circuit from the deadside by crossing the runway at the upwind end or close to that point over the upwind half of the runway.
There is no failsafe route.
While descending deadside, the pilot should have a good view of the aircraft in the circuit and on the ground departing.
In many cases it is not the departing aircraft which is the problem it is the one on final that makes a missed approach which can cause the most interesting situation.
One of the reasons for crossing at the upwind end is that everyone knows where to look to spot the aircraft.
As with the rest of VFR flying spot other aircraft and help them to spot you.
Regards,
DFC
Thread Starter
It seems the consensus of opinon is to check Pooleys beforehand for joining instructions, keep your eyes open and adapt your join to the circuit as you find it. Good advice. Sadly, often the one thing people fail to do 
!
IMHO the average GA airfield has a relatively short, say 800m, runway and that would suggest to me that crossing the upwind numbers at circuit height is a sensible plan in the absence of contrary instructions.
Where you have longer runways - say the 1800m referred to above - crossing the upwind numbers seems problematic and crossing somewhere between mid-point and the upwind end might be a good idea! In any event, I would have thought that airfields with runways of that size are likely to be bigger GA or Commercial hubs which have ATC and specific joining instructions.
Anyway, thanks for all the thoughts Ladies and Gentlemen.
!IMHO the average GA airfield has a relatively short, say 800m, runway and that would suggest to me that crossing the upwind numbers at circuit height is a sensible plan in the absence of contrary instructions.
Where you have longer runways - say the 1800m referred to above - crossing the upwind numbers seems problematic and crossing somewhere between mid-point and the upwind end might be a good idea! In any event, I would have thought that airfields with runways of that size are likely to be bigger GA or Commercial hubs which have ATC and specific joining instructions.
Anyway, thanks for all the thoughts Ladies and Gentlemen.
Thread Starter
Yeah G-EMMA, it's always good to stick your neck out and ask these questions. What have you got to lose?!
I often found when training and now that I'm still on relatively low hours, that the books and FIs don't teach you everything - far from it - and as I don't personally have a whole lot of different experiences to draw on when faced with new situations, I open my gob without hesitation. It also pays to ask questions on PPRUNE even when you think you know the answer. Sometimes you may look daft, sometimes not...
On the flip side, it's sad that some people take unsavoury delight in putting you down when you do that.
But there are some lovely, helpful people on here too 
I often found when training and now that I'm still on relatively low hours, that the books and FIs don't teach you everything - far from it - and as I don't personally have a whole lot of different experiences to draw on when faced with new situations, I open my gob without hesitation. It also pays to ask questions on PPRUNE even when you think you know the answer. Sometimes you may look daft, sometimes not...
On the flip side, it's sad that some people take unsavoury delight in putting you down when you do that.
But there are some lovely, helpful people on here too
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Trying to second guess the take off and climb performance of other aircraft sounds ridiculous to me. If you cross over the numbers you are where you are supposed to be, and more importantly where you are expected to be by anyone taking off.
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Le Touquet summer before last. I am climbing out and am over the numbers at 500 + feet. A pair of G registered Cherokees appear from my right side apparently joining crosswind and pass just over my head. I hope they were arrested on landing and instructed in the French way of joining a circuit.
Why do we continue to teach and use in UK the "standard overhead join", it has only one advantage.. at least you will be close to a fire truck when you have your midair over the numbers!
Why do we continue to teach and use in UK the "standard overhead join", it has only one advantage.. at least you will be close to a fire truck when you have your midair over the numbers!
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One does need to be flexible.. but 99% of the time, flying over the upwind numbers works. It also gives a fixed point to check for other traffic joining crosswind. If one of you is over the numbers and someone else mid runway, it could all end up in a mess. If everyone is aiming for the numbers then it reduces confusing and helps spot traffic.
If there's a Cub on the runway, just be very careful!
If there's a Cub on the runway, just be very careful!
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The standard overhead join goes back to a time when almost all flights were non-radio. The signal square gave the required information which could be given in no other way. Hence overhead above circuit height to read it and descend etc..
There is still alot of non radio flying, more I suspect than many realise, and long may it continue. It really is the best way to fly and far more enjoyable. A good case can be made that it is safer too; but I won't go there.
There is still alot of non radio flying, more I suspect than many realise, and long may it continue. It really is the best way to fly and far more enjoyable. A good case can be made that it is safer too; but I won't go there.
Avoid imitations
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I still say look out of the window, use the radio where appropriate (listen out, build a picture of traffic but always watch out for the one not calling, for what ever reason, either a non-radio equipped aircraft, or one who forgot to call) and always be flexible and fit into existing circuit traffic because they have right of way. To assume that a join must always be over the upwind numbers, irrespective of traffic climbing in the circuit, is absurd and goes against common sense, as well as the rules.
The climb performance of some aircraft most definitely means they will be at least 1000 feet agl by the time they reach the upwind end even at the shortest of runways.
Consider this, if a mid air collision were to take place, between an aircraft in the circuit or one joining, who would take the blame?
The climb performance of some aircraft most definitely means they will be at least 1000 feet agl by the time they reach the upwind end even at the shortest of runways.
Consider this, if a mid air collision were to take place, between an aircraft in the circuit or one joining, who would take the blame?
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Consider this, if a mid air collision were to take place, between an aircraft in the circuit or one joining, who would take the blame?
Intersting point but it would be the rules of the air that would decide it not the fact that one is in the circuit and one is joining.
Intersting point but it would be the rules of the air that would decide it not the fact that one is in the circuit and one is joining.
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Here's another OHJ scenario
I'm sure this experience is not unique and as it is related to OHJ's it seems reasonable to post here.
Having called finals at an AFISO airfield, an aircraft which was already lined up decided to take-off. I continued the approach with the intention to go-around if I wasn't happy with the separation and as expected, I had to make the go-around call.
I started re-configuring the aircraft and commencing the climb on the dead side, aiming to level off at circuit height whilst remaining visual with the departing aircraft.
At this point, around about the centre of the runway, I noticed an OHJ aircraft approaching from the dead side, on a descending track which actually would take him just below me as long as I maintained the climb. In the event I had to maintain the climb to above circuit height in order to increase the separation.
So here are the questions:
1. Apart from calling 'short final' was there anything else I could have done better? (More concerned with ANC at the time!)
2. If OHJ traffic conflicts with an aircraft going around, is it the case that the go-around traffic has precedence?
I realise that the name of the game is avoidance, but any informed and constructive comments are most welcome
Having called finals at an AFISO airfield, an aircraft which was already lined up decided to take-off. I continued the approach with the intention to go-around if I wasn't happy with the separation and as expected, I had to make the go-around call.
I started re-configuring the aircraft and commencing the climb on the dead side, aiming to level off at circuit height whilst remaining visual with the departing aircraft.
At this point, around about the centre of the runway, I noticed an OHJ aircraft approaching from the dead side, on a descending track which actually would take him just below me as long as I maintained the climb. In the event I had to maintain the climb to above circuit height in order to increase the separation.
So here are the questions:
1. Apart from calling 'short final' was there anything else I could have done better? (More concerned with ANC at the time!)
2. If OHJ traffic conflicts with an aircraft going around, is it the case that the go-around traffic has precedence?
I realise that the name of the game is avoidance, but any informed and constructive comments are most welcome
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On the point of 'sticking to a rigid plan' rather than adapting to the situation....
The airfield where I am training does not allow standard overhead joins due to helicopter traffic and those fools who like to jump out of perfectly servicable aircraft operating on the dead side (although whether you could describe the jump plane as 'servicable' is a point open for debate!).
At one point in my training I listened to a incoming pilot 'request' (quoted due to A/G service at airfield) a standard overhead join three times, and be told three times to join downwind. Even as an 8 hours student I was sitting listening in horror.
To be honest, I am not even sure what happens here, presumably as the radio station is A/G they cannot enforce this policy if the pilot is bloody-minded enough to insist on the overhead join. He would probably do well to avoid the operators if he did though
The airfield where I am training does not allow standard overhead joins due to helicopter traffic and those fools who like to jump out of perfectly servicable aircraft operating on the dead side (although whether you could describe the jump plane as 'servicable' is a point open for debate!).
At one point in my training I listened to a incoming pilot 'request' (quoted due to A/G service at airfield) a standard overhead join three times, and be told three times to join downwind. Even as an 8 hours student I was sitting listening in horror.
To be honest, I am not even sure what happens here, presumably as the radio station is A/G they cannot enforce this policy if the pilot is bloody-minded enough to insist on the overhead join. He would probably do well to avoid the operators if he did though
Avoid imitations
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Intersting point but it would be the rules of the air that would decide it not the fact that one is in the circuit and one is joining.
znww5,
The other aircraft joining, had he been aware of your presence, had two options. He could have either stopped his descent to circuit height and continued circling to space behind you, or he could have slackened his turn to pass behind you, which would have meant he merely had a slightly longer downwind leg. He obviously didn't consider either, effectively leaving you no option but to leave the circuit by climbing above the height of the pattern. Poor airmanship on his part.
Avoid imitations
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CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 2 Page 9
(6) Subject to paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), if two or more flying machines, gliders or airships are
approaching any place for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude shall have the
right-of-way.
Section 2 Page 9
(6) Subject to paragraphs (2), (3) and (4), if two or more flying machines, gliders or airships are
approaching any place for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude shall have the
right-of-way.
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No I have my ANO--it goes something like this.
PPLs are dangerous in the circuit at any altitude. Whether in my Airbus or a C152 i am scared and I take as many precautions as possible to avoid encounters including non- folk lore patterns if required. (I like PPLs on the ground and in the bar, they are quite safe then)
To be more serious it sounds like the ANO is saying if you join at 500 feet you have right of way over everyone except those established on finals. I like it!
PPLs are dangerous in the circuit at any altitude. Whether in my Airbus or a C152 i am scared and I take as many precautions as possible to avoid encounters including non- folk lore patterns if required. (I like PPLs on the ground and in the bar, they are quite safe then)
To be more serious it sounds like the ANO is saying if you join at 500 feet you have right of way over everyone except those established on finals. I like it!
Avoid imitations
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To be even more serious, I think it means that if two aircraft appear on finals together, the lower one has right of way.
I think it's better to stick to basic airmanship rather than trying to find clever new ways to interpret what the ANO says.
I think it's better to stick to basic airmanship rather than trying to find clever new ways to interpret what the ANO says.
