Silly question...Why no parachutes?
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Silly question...Why no parachutes?
I was telling a friend all about my flying coming up for the weekend (as I tend to...lol) and she asked if I wear a parachute. i don't, and she asked why, and I couldn't think of a satisfactory answer. I hadn't thought about it til now, half way through my PPL. But when i did think about it, I used to do flying with the Air Cadets, and we always wore parachutes, whether gliding or powered flying. And, i used to do a bit of gliding up at Deeside gliding club by Aboyne, and i'm fairly sure I always got a parachute then too. So, why no parachutes? Does the majority of PPLers out there also not wear them, or is it just my school? i have seen people wearing a kind floatation thing around their necks when flying out over water, but never seen anyone at my school wearing a parachute.
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The short answer is that a parachute wouldn't help you in the majority of accidents, as they tend to happen in the take-off or landing phase. There are very few accidents during the en-route phase of a flight, where you would be high enough to deploy the chute.
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I was telling a friend all about my flying coming up for the weekend (as I tend to...lol) and she asked if I wear a parachute. i don't, and she asked why, and I couldn't think of a satisfactory answer. I hadn't thought about it til now, half way through my PPL. But when i did think about it, I used to do flying with the Air Cadets, and we always wore parachutes, whether gliding or powered flying. And, i used to do a bit of gliding up at Deeside gliding club by Aboyne, and i'm fairly sure I always got a parachute then too. So, why no parachutes? Does the majority of PPLers out there also not wear them, or is it just my school? i have seen people wearing a kind floatation thing around their necks when flying out over water, but never seen anyone at my school wearing a parachute.
1 - For most Spam cans it would be very hard work to get out of the plane in the air with rear trailing doors
2 - Most fatal accidents are 'sudden' (stall/Spin, CFIT, spatial disorientation) and you would be a hole in the ground before you realised it was time to jump.
3 - Mid-airs and other in-flight failure is rare (particularly vs gliders circling in close proximity to other gliders)
4 - The seats are not designed for wearing chutes
5 - Unlike the military, civilian operations have nor real possibility of being shot down
Aerobatic aircraft are more likely to be operated at the limits of control and to have a canopy exit so you probably have more chance of getting in an unrecoverable attitude and more chance of getting out of the aircraft, hence the use of parachutes.
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It surely depends on what you are flying and the risk factor involved. Parachutes are regularly worn for aerobatics, fast jet flying (well ok, Jet Provost!) display flying and para dropping. It's a matter of personal choice, and similar to wearing a hard helmet and flying suit etc
I'm not sure that A-B flying in a C150 or PA28 carries a high risk, and in any event, you'd find it difficult to exit most GA cabin types if you needed to bale out in a hurry from 1500ft. Hordes of abandoned PA28s dropping out of the sky when the engine has stopped would really worry the insurance conmen and give them even more reason to increase the premiums!
Given the choice, I'd rather not wear a parachute unless I was flying an aircraft that could be abandoned easily, and even then, It would have to be a REAL life threatening situation (Fire, wing off etc) to get me to jump out.
I do wear a parachute in some types when I fly air displays, always in a fast jet but when para dropping, I choose not to sit on a parachute all day, even when one is provided.
I wonder if the poor guy who spun in from a great height in a Slingsby over Suffolk would agree?.....and i know of at least one pilot who has succesfully abandoned a Pitts Special at quite a low level after an irrecoverable spin developed. Even with a serviceable ejection seat system, a Strikemaster spun in from 15000ft and the pilot did not eject until it was too late for the seat to operate within its design parameters........!
I'm not sure that A-B flying in a C150 or PA28 carries a high risk, and in any event, you'd find it difficult to exit most GA cabin types if you needed to bale out in a hurry from 1500ft. Hordes of abandoned PA28s dropping out of the sky when the engine has stopped would really worry the insurance conmen and give them even more reason to increase the premiums!
Given the choice, I'd rather not wear a parachute unless I was flying an aircraft that could be abandoned easily, and even then, It would have to be a REAL life threatening situation (Fire, wing off etc) to get me to jump out.
I do wear a parachute in some types when I fly air displays, always in a fast jet but when para dropping, I choose not to sit on a parachute all day, even when one is provided.
Most fatal accidents are 'sudden' (stall/Spin, CFIT, spatial disorientation) and you would be a hole in the ground before you realised it was time to jump.
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Irrecoverable spin in a Pitts ? I think not. A non-recovered spin, obviously if he got out by 'chute.
In very many years of aerobatic flying I have never worn a parachute and I never will. They are not, in my opinion, the safety aid they are made out to be and have some serious drawbacks. But that is just my view and I know many others who disagree and wear one for aeros all the time.
But like the 'bone dome' I wonder if it is an image thing rather than a safety feature. A pose aid perhaps.
In very many years of aerobatic flying I have never worn a parachute and I never will. They are not, in my opinion, the safety aid they are made out to be and have some serious drawbacks. But that is just my view and I know many others who disagree and wear one for aeros all the time.
But like the 'bone dome' I wonder if it is an image thing rather than a safety feature. A pose aid perhaps.
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Tiger,
Surely the risk of structural failure/damage is much greater in aeros than your average other GA flight - and therefore parachutes are probably a good idea for that reason alone, apart from spins.
I'm intrigued however, are the serious drawbacks in your opinion the problems in getting out the aircraft, or something else?
Surely the risk of structural failure/damage is much greater in aeros than your average other GA flight - and therefore parachutes are probably a good idea for that reason alone, apart from spins.
I'm intrigued however, are the serious drawbacks in your opinion the problems in getting out the aircraft, or something else?
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Tigerbatics presumably places his trust in his rubber heels and a kevlar skull. Most of the rest of us don't. Eddie Goggins, the pilot who survived the collision in Malta last year, baling out at very low level, posted an informed article on his experience with bone-domes and parachutes, culminating with the Extra 200 bale-out, on the BAeA mailing list - I'll find out if he's OK with it being posted to a wider audience. Required reading for the aerobatic & formation brigade
As has been explained above, most training and touring aircraft simply aren't built with parachutes in mind.
As has been explained above, most training and touring aircraft simply aren't built with parachutes in mind.
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Tigerbatics,
Ahem, I beg to differ.
10th August 1996, Pitts S-2A G-BKWI near Ipswich. Unrecoverable spin and crashed into tress, with 2 seriously injured.
8th April 1997, Pitts S-1 G-BUTO near Barton under Needwood. A/c entered inverted spin while carrying out aerobatics. Pilot unable to regain control & parachuted to safety. A/c destroyed.
And a few years ago, I myself watched a very experienced aerobatic & display pilot who's aircraft (Pitts S-1) didnt recover from a spin as expected and who narrowly avoided carving a neat hole in the airfield! I was already running towards the fire truck..........
I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest about spin recoveries on a Friday afternoon, so I bow to your superior knowledge
but I well remember an old & bold aerobatic instructor mate once saying that ALL aircraft will spin, but not all will recover as and when expected!
One only has to study the UK Slingsby T67 accident statistics, especially regarding spin accidents, to appreciate this
Ahem, I beg to differ.
10th August 1996, Pitts S-2A G-BKWI near Ipswich. Unrecoverable spin and crashed into tress, with 2 seriously injured.
8th April 1997, Pitts S-1 G-BUTO near Barton under Needwood. A/c entered inverted spin while carrying out aerobatics. Pilot unable to regain control & parachuted to safety. A/c destroyed.
And a few years ago, I myself watched a very experienced aerobatic & display pilot who's aircraft (Pitts S-1) didnt recover from a spin as expected and who narrowly avoided carving a neat hole in the airfield! I was already running towards the fire truck..........
I really don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest about spin recoveries on a Friday afternoon, so I bow to your superior knowledge
but I well remember an old & bold aerobatic instructor mate once saying that ALL aircraft will spin, but not all will recover as and when expected!One only has to study the UK Slingsby T67 accident statistics, especially regarding spin accidents, to appreciate this
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Tigerbatics,
You said....
"..... They are not, in my opinion, the safety aid they are made out to be and have some serious drawbacks......
.....But like the 'bone dome' I wonder if it is an image thing rather than a safety feature. A pose aid perhaps...."
I am puzzled, just what are the serious drawbacks you refer to? And I am even more puzzled that you think they may be a " pose aid".
I do not wear one because I spend my time in spam cans mostly. If I was jump flying or performing aeros I most certainly would wear one. Nothing to do with posing, just self preservation.
You said....
"..... They are not, in my opinion, the safety aid they are made out to be and have some serious drawbacks......
.....But like the 'bone dome' I wonder if it is an image thing rather than a safety feature. A pose aid perhaps...."
I am puzzled, just what are the serious drawbacks you refer to? And I am even more puzzled that you think they may be a " pose aid".
I do not wear one because I spend my time in spam cans mostly. If I was jump flying or performing aeros I most certainly would wear one. Nothing to do with posing, just self preservation.
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Has anyone ever seen anyone posing in a parachute? I well remember the old RAF Irvin parachute was too bl00dy difficult to even walk in!
BUT......I did see a sad looking sort of chap at the Kemble air display a few years back who spent all day wandering around AV8 wearing a pair of G trousers outside his neatly ironed flying suit, and he was not even on the flying programme!!!!! Must have been f
ing uncomfortable
I bet all the punters thought he looked cooooooool
BUT......I did see a sad looking sort of chap at the Kemble air display a few years back who spent all day wandering around AV8 wearing a pair of G trousers outside his neatly ironed flying suit, and he was not even on the flying programme!!!!! Must have been f
ing uncomfortableI bet all the punters thought he looked cooooooool
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TB, the parachute is another option, and will work at low level. The proof is that I am writing this! I would say that a mid-air is the most likely worst scenario for a light aircraft, and that will probably be at a reasonable ht.., and don't think for a moment that you are immune to a non-recoverable (in the ht available) inverted spin situation. It's all in the accident reports.
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I beg to differ. If we are talking about powered aircraft (not gliders), how many fatal accidents have happened in the UK in the last say 5 years, and how many of them have been mid-airs? For spamcan flying we just don't kill ourselves in ways such that a personal parachute would materially influence the fatality rate.
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Irrecoverable spin in a Pitts ?
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What is it that happens to the Pitts that makes a spin 'irrecoverable'; aside that is, from mounting a 1980 camera on the tail of an S2, or the ground being too near?
Art Scholl was wearing a parachute wasn't he?
Art Scholl was wearing a parachute wasn't he?
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How bulky are the smallest seat type parachutes? Our aeroplane is "semi aerobatic" (Rallye) with some approved aeros in the POH, though G limitation is only about 4.5G (we have a G meter). I quite fancy doing some aero's but wouldn't do any without a parachute on (at least to start with) as no one has aero'd the aircraft and I'd hate for the wings to fall off withot wearing one I notice the seat cushion can be removed leaving a tray which I assume is designed for the parachute?
(I have done aero's without a parachute in a Bulldog, with a competent instructor RHS to save my bacon in case (when) I messed it up)
I notice the seat cushion can be removed leaving a tray which I assume is designed for the parachute?(I have done aero's without a parachute in a Bulldog, with a competent instructor RHS
to save my bacon in case (when) I messed it up)
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Regardless, TB, still don't understand how the cons of wearing a chute can outweigh the pros.
- Gotta have an aircraft with a jettisonable canopy for a parachute to make sense
- Gotta have had (freefall) parachute training and egress training
- Parachutes are expensive to acquire, and these sort of chutes need to be repacked by a professional every now and then (don't know the exact interval and why)
- A parachute is bulky so to fit in the same space you need to get rid of the padding in your seat or move the seat further down- or backwards. Uncomfortable, sometimes even impossible. (I am a tight fit in a Robin 2160 with just the very thin seat padding and the seat fully back. With a parachute I will most likely not fit at all anymore.)
- There's now a fairly thick layer of loose material between your back/butt and the airframe, which influences the "feel" of the aircraft. Makes a difference in aerobatics.
Combine that with the fact that there are only very few scenarios where a parachute might actually save your life (Unrecoverable spin has been mentioned, plus a midair and a seriously overstressed aircraft whose wings fell off), and this means that some people make the tradeoff not to wear one.
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Sorry, should have clarified that I meant just during aeros.
Most aerobatic aircraft have these I think (with the exception of a Cessna Aerobat/Citabria IIRC. Don't know if these aircraft are flown with/without chutes?)
Does the 20min briefing I had before I went flying AEF with the cadets in Bulldogs/Tutors count? If not, what was the RAF missing out?
And the rest comes down to expense & comfort I as far as I've read it - somewhat similar to the debate between carrying lifejackets/immersion suits over water and so on.
So I would guess that it boils down to risk manangement & acceptance v other benefits, as you, I and others have said. Which is fair enough - but personally I would have thought that cost, comfort and some training wouldn't stack up well against being able to jump & live.
I can see the point about canopys etc, but surely it's better to try and get out with a chance rather than stay inside with none.
(All of the above posted with my acceptance that other people, vastly more experienced may know more about this than me! - total aero exp about 8 hrs with the very nice people at Kemble
)
- Gotta have an aircraft with a jettisonable canopy for a parachute to make sense
- Gotta have had (freefall) parachute training and egress training
Parachutes are expensive to acquire, and these sort of chutes need to be repacked by a professional every now and then (don't know the exact interval and why)
- A parachute is bulky so to fit in the same space you need to get rid of the padding in your seat or move the seat further down- or backwards. Uncomfortable, sometimes even impossible. (I am a tight fit in a Robin 2160 with just the very thin seat padding and the seat fully back. With a parachute I will most likely not fit at all anymore.) There's now a fairly thick layer of loose material between your back/butt and the airframe, which influences the "feel" of the aircraft. Makes a difference in aerobatics.
Combine that with the fact that there are only very few scenarios where a parachute might actually save your life (Unrecoverable spin has been mentioned, plus a midair and a seriously overstressed aircraft whose wings fell off), and this means that some people make the tradeoff not to wear one.
- A parachute is bulky so to fit in the same space you need to get rid of the padding in your seat or move the seat further down- or backwards. Uncomfortable, sometimes even impossible. (I am a tight fit in a Robin 2160 with just the very thin seat padding and the seat fully back. With a parachute I will most likely not fit at all anymore.) There's now a fairly thick layer of loose material between your back/butt and the airframe, which influences the "feel" of the aircraft. Makes a difference in aerobatics.
Combine that with the fact that there are only very few scenarios where a parachute might actually save your life (Unrecoverable spin has been mentioned, plus a midair and a seriously overstressed aircraft whose wings fell off), and this means that some people make the tradeoff not to wear one.
So I would guess that it boils down to risk manangement & acceptance v other benefits, as you, I and others have said. Which is fair enough - but personally I would have thought that cost, comfort and some training wouldn't stack up well against being able to jump & live.
I can see the point about canopys etc, but surely it's better to try and get out with a chance rather than stay inside with none.
(All of the above posted with my acceptance that other people, vastly more experienced may know more about this than me! - total aero exp about 8 hrs with the very nice people at Kemble
)
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Originally Posted by BackPacker
Just some cons that I can come up with. And I'm just starting aerobatics...
- Gotta have an aircraft with a jettisonable canopy for a parachute to make sense
- Gotta have an aircraft with a jettisonable canopy for a parachute to make sense
Originally Posted by BackPacker
- Gotta have had (freefall) parachute training and egress training
Originally Posted by BackPacker
- Parachutes are expensive to acquire, and these sort of chutes need to be repacked by a professional every now and then (don't know the exact interval and why)
Originally Posted by BackPacker
- A parachute is bulky so to fit in the same space you need to get rid of the padding in your seat or move the seat further down- or backwards. Uncomfortable, sometimes even impossible. (I am a tight fit in a Robin 2160 with just the very thin seat padding and the seat fully back. With a parachute I will most likely not fit at all anymore.)
Originally Posted by BackPacker
- There's now a fairly thick layer of loose material between your back/butt and the airframe, which influences the "feel" of the aircraft. Makes a difference in aerobatics.
Originally Posted by BackPacker
Combine that with the fact that there are only very few scenarios where a parachute might actually save your life (Unrecoverable spin has been mentioned, plus a midair and a seriously overstressed aircraft whose wings fell off), and this means that some people make the tradeoff not to wear one.
To add to the scenarios above, I'd add a fire at altitude, and the prospect of a forced landing in (seriously) adverse terrain or, depending on aircraft type, a water ditching. A ditching in the Pitts or similar fixed-gear tail-dragger is almost certain to result in you being strapped, inverted in a flooded cockpit - my judgement is that stepping over the side is the marginally less dangerous option.
I'd highly recommend a read of Eddie's posting - sign up for the BAeA email/web forum, links from the BAeA website.